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Zippy8
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A little background

Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:06 pm

I realise I have been dipping my toes in the quad pool recently, someplace I have no business being so here's my last... contribution... for a while.

There has been a small outbreak of fevered discussion over at The Other Place™ about Revolution (the company), their quadline kite patent and matter relating to the two. Much of it has been almost wilfully inaccurate and ill-informed. Or "par for the course" as regards that forum :P . Allow me to simply pass on a few quotes from an article in American Kite, issue Summer 1990, on the Hadzickis that stretched over 6 pages.
    If there were, as they suspected, millions to be made, the Hadzickis wanted these millions all for themselves.

    Brothers Dave, 25, Jim, 28, and Joe Hadzicki, 30, hold their personal pot of gold.

    To date, the Hadzickis say they have identified three out and out copy-cats - manufacturers turning out kites which, in their opinion, infringe on their patent.

    One prominent manufacturer - whose imitative four-liner hit the market well after Revolution One had achieved recognition - looks like a sitting duck to the Hadzickis. "After we're finished with him," Joe confidently predicts, "we'll own his company."

American Kite went on to publish a plan, in their Summer 1994 edition, for Nop Velthuizen's Quadriphant - a quadline in the shape of an elephant's head. In the next issue they ran a a legal notice informing readers that "certain features of the Quadriphant kite are covered by the Revolution patent" and "The company further advises that the construction, use and/or sale of the quadline kite following the plans, instructions and suggestions contained in the article, whether for commercial distribution or personal use might be an infringement of the company's patent rights."

So.... when all you kumquats get together in Bristol to celebrate 20 years of the Rev., now you know why are quadline kites still look the damn same.

HTH :wink:

Mike,
BTW I have a copy of the plan so if you want......
 
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Zippy8
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Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:34 pm

Oh yes... 8-[

In 1990 The Kite Store in Covent Garden would gladly sell you a Revolution One (with handles) for £149 - which is £234 in today's money (using RPI adjustment).

A Benson Phantom (the original one) would have cost you £115.

Mike,
no really this time.
 
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Fungus
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Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:27 pm

Mike , 3434 posts :shock: , does unemployment pay well in Finland ?.......only joking :P

btw are the Hadzacki brothers millionares ? has anyone really made a good living out of kites ?

fungus :)
w H ind c H ecks H ar 4 w H imps
 
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Zippy8
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Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:56 pm

Fungus wrote:
does unemployment pay well in Finland ?.......only joking :P

No idea. I've never had cause to find out either. Most of my posts are from work anyway.

are the Hadzacki brothers millionares ?

You'd have to ask them. IIRC Rev. (the company) used to be envolved in carbon supplies to, amongst other things, the golfing industry. However a current check of their business listing puts them under "toys" and their previous industry website now links to the ever popular smiling-girl-with-a-rucksack that indicates it's long gone.

One listing quoted annual sales at $1M. So 20 years of that.... it's possible that one of them might be.

has anyone really made a good living out of kites ?

Yes.

Mike.
 
johnnmitchell
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Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:47 pm

are the Hadzacki brothers millionares ?

You'd have to ask them. IIRC Rev. (the company) used to be envolved in carbon supplies to, amongst other things, the golfing industry. However a current check of their business listing puts them under "toys" and their previous industry website now links to the ever popular smiling-girl-with-a-rucksack that indicates it's long gone.

One listing quoted annual sales at $1M. So 20 years of that.... it's possible that one of them might be.

has anyone really made a good living out of kites ?

Yes.

Mike.


Jim Hadzicki left Revolution Enterprises around 1997/98. He is in the housing business.
Joe Hadzicki still is in charge at Revolution.
Dave Hadzicki probably earns most of his money because he is a professional golfer. He works randomly at Revolution.
There is also their sister Lollie who processes most of the orders.
Mom Hadzicki use to work part time, but is now in full retirement and enjoying it.
Their business today involves:
- skate boards - http://www.revdeck.com/
- walking and blind canes - http://www.advantagecanes.com/
- kites - http://www.revkites.com/main/
- and something with golf shafts and at one time yo-yo's.
All are made from carbon composite materials.
They manufacture everything in the San Diego CA USA area, including the sewing of the revolution kite sails and all carbon fiber work.

Are they millionaires? Maybe, maybe not. They might well each have million dollar homes, but I really don't know. Homes are overpriced in San Diego, so it is likely.

Can they live from kites? I don't think so. That is probably why they are into other businesses.

Is anyone else making a good living just from kites? May be two or three at the most.
Most likely are:
- David Gomberg of Lincoln City OR USA
- Peter Lynn of New Zealand (but he sold the business not long ago)
- I don't know of anyone else "living good" from kites. No doubt there are a few more breaking even, but they usually have other products to help along.
 
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Stone in Shoe Bob
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Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:17 pm

I really don’t know what people think gives them the right to discuss this at all, let alone so publicly. The financial circumstances of the Hadzicki family are nobody’s business but their own.

They market their products and we chose to either buy or not to buy. We all make our own choices, nobody is twisting anybody’s arm here.

There are many on this forum who have been happy to pay for their Deep Spaces, Furies, Sea Devils, Talons and the like and they would, quite rightly, be in uproar if rip offs were being touted left right and centre. I really can not see why the Hadzicki family should not be afforded the same respect.
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Miles F
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Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:00 pm

Although it's right that everyone has the right to privacy in their personal and business affairs, the issue at the core of this is perhaps patents.

As Mike says there are very few quad line designs out there and the one's that are could perhaps be in breach of certain patent aspects. This has been (perhaps justly) persued by the Hadzicki family and has no doubt discouraged many from dabbling in quad spin-offs (I'll exclude the Airbow here as it is original in far too many ways to be called a Rev clone).

However to all our benefits as dual line fliers is the fact that few dual line sport kites have been made under patents (I'll defer to Mike's broader knowledge on this one). This means with so much experimentation and tweeking going on, not to mention the odd bit of "reverse engineering", ideal combinations have come to the fore rapidly and desseminated around the kite making world. All of which has ensured free development instead of stiffled development.

Yes patents should be up held and the intelectual rights therein but I for one am heartly glad that the same path has not been followed in the dual line world or I'd be framing up my Liteflite/Northshore Radical etc for an afternoon of well not much besides figures really.
A NOHD will be published for the DS in due course, till then wear sunnies.
 
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Craig
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Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:37 pm

Stone in Shoe Bob wrote:
I really don’t know what people think gives them the right to discuss this at all, let alone so publicly.


Are you suggesting censorship?

Stone in Shoe Bob wrote:
The financial circumstances of the Hadzicki family are nobody’s business but their own.


Depends on how their business is structured.
 
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711jrp
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Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Craig wrote:

Are you suggesting censorship?



I do hope not!



Sod off Bob you're a proper Image
Pete
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Zippy8
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Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:05 pm

Stone in Shoe Bob wrote:
I really don’t know what people think gives them the right to discuss this at all, let alone so publicly. The financial circumstances of the Hadzicki family are nobody’s business but their own.

A) it ain't about anybody's finances, it's about patents. As in the linked thread on GWTW.
B) nothing here isn't public domain. I am not revealing any secrets, nor is anybody else.

With that in mind.....

There are many on this forum who have been happy to pay for their Deep Spaces, Furies, Sea Devils, Talons and the like and they would, quite rightly, be in uproar if rip offs were being touted left right and centre.

With you all the way.

I really can not see why the Hadzicki family should not be afforded the same respect.

Let us, then, look at how it is we are able to choose from all these Deep Spaces, Furies, Sea Devils, Talons and the like. Many of the fundamental elements of the dual line stunt kite are covered by this patent, awarded to Don Tabor of Top of the Line Kites (the company) on April the 12th, 1988. With it he controls how these elements may be used. They are legally recognised as his ideas and his to say how and by whom they may be exercised.

He made them freely available. To everyone. That means home builders, competitors, everyone. And, as we know, we now have not just Top of the Line's Hawaiian Team Kite, Spin Off, North Shore Radical but also Deep Spaces, Furies, Sea Devils, Talons and the like. And Top of the Line prospered throughout this, as I recall, until ill health caused him to sell the business (IIRC).

Let us compare and contrast this to how this patent of June the 9th, 1992, issued to one Joseph Hadzicki, has been dealt with.

And I quote (again) "After we're finished with him," Joe confidently predicts, "we'll own his company." Indeed the legal note from American Kite in 1994 indicates that they even considered personal use of the concepts in their patent to be an infringement. That's not just copying a Rev. (which is, BTW, quite wrong) but pretty much "making any quadline kite".

Your choice of quadline kite has been for most of the 20 years that Revs. have been about "which size of Rev. will it be ?" Stagnated, much ?

I am really not making any judgement about this. Legally both men could use their patent how they wish. But dual line kites exist in a multitude of subtle flavours, quads..... vanilla or double vanilla. My preference is clear.

Mike.
 
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Stone in Shoe Bob
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Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:57 pm

Craig wrote:
Are you suggesting censorship?


Certainly not, but I am absolutely disgusted at the arrogance of people who believe that the Hadzicki family’s financial circumstances are anybody’s business but their own.

With regard to the patents, if someone is caught stealing the HD TV from your lounge or the Talon from your kite bag, you have the right to expect the full weight of the law to be brought to bear. Why then would you deny patent a holder the right to defend their property?
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sailor99
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Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:22 pm

I'm with Bob on this one. For two reasons.

Nothing to do with privacy but if the Hadziki's had made themselves billionaires by their designs, good luck to them. It would be by their hard work and their ideas that they would have done it. Whats wrong with that.

The second is that to call everyone who chooses to celebrate the 20th aniversary a small sour fruit is plain silly. I thought I had left name calling behind when I left primary school.

I can understand people getting worked up about the patent system. But talk to the US Patent office, not fractured axel, if you want something done about it. But if you are going to do so I suggest you try and use evidence that is more current than an article dating from the days of Michael Jackson.........

Oh and zippy, I was optimistically encouraged when you said it was your last post for a while. Were you fibbing? Come on you can tell me ;)
 
NEX
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Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:01 pm

Quote Stone in Shoe Bob.

"And the rest of us have the right to comment, it’s called Free Speech. "

sailor99 wrote:

The second is that to call everyone who chooses to celebrate the 20th aniversary a small sour fruit is plain silly. I thought I had left name calling behind when I left primary school.


corse you did.

Quote Sailor.

"Indeed. There's nothing like backing your argument up with good hard evidence, not. But why would one expect more from a tangerine. "
:smackbottom:

http://www.revkites.com/forum/index.php ... =1472&st=0

:dancing:
 
sailor99
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Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:58 pm

Yep nex good point, and accepted. However,
Miles F wrote:
Although it's right that everyone has the right to privacy in their personal and business affairs, the issue at the core of this is perhaps patents.

As Mike says there are very few quad line designs out there and the one's that are could perhaps be in breach of certain patent aspects. This has been (perhaps justly) persued by the Hadzicki family and has no doubt discouraged many from dabbling in quad spin-offs (I'll exclude the Airbow here as it is original in far too many ways to be called a Rev clone).

However to all our benefits as dual line fliers is the fact that few dual line sport kites have been made under patents (I'll defer to Mike's broader knowledge on this one). This means with so much experimentation and tweeking going on, not to mention the odd bit of "reverse engineering", ideal combinations have come to the fore rapidly and desseminated around the kite making world. All of which has ensured free development instead of stiffled development.

Yes patents should be up held and the intelectual rights therein but I for one am heartly glad that the same path has not been followed in the dual line world or I'd be framing up my Liteflite/Northshore Radical etc for an afternoon of well not much besides figures really.

Great points!

Zippy8 wrote:
[size=9]

So.... when all you kumquats get together in Bristol to celebrate 20 years of the Rev., now you know why are quadline kites still look the damn same.



Bit on the weak side.

711jrp wrote:
Craig wrote:

Are you suggesting censorship?



I do hope not!



Sod off Bob you're a proper Image
Oh dear, pathetic.
 
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Stone in Shoe Bob
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Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:33 pm

Nex

Let’s get one thing absolutely clear. I am not opposed to Free Speech.

And again in big black letters, so there is absolutely no doubt.
I am not opposed to Free Speech.

But this debate is not about free speech this debate is about an alleged theft, okay not the theft of anything tangible, but a theft all the same. And the financial circumstances of the alleged victims is totally irrelevant to the debate.
Stone in Shoe Bob

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Treat everyone with politeness, even those who are rude to you - not because they are nice, but because you are.
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