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Craig
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:58 am

Hasn't the Rev patent run out?
 
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Zippy8
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:04 am

Hi Ben.... it's always fun here, isn't it ? :roll:

quaa714 wrote:
The decision to knowingly exploit the LEGALLY owned and recognized international patent of another company

To quite from Wikipedia directly: there is no such thing as an "international patent". As BitLaw puts it:- "The rights granted under a United States patent extend only throughout the territory of the United States and have no effect in other countries." Now that's not to say that possession of a US patent cannot be used as... leverage... in another country.

Also the US patent that most covers the Revolution-style kite (or kite-like flying device as it is termed) was submitted in 1988 and granted in 1990, which means it expired 20 years from the submission date, or 2008. Unless there's something else I'm not aware of.

I found point 5.3 interesting.

And so on. As has been pointed out, few people want to buy a counterfeit but more may be interested in variations on a theme.

Mike.
 
daz larsen
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Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:22 pm

All I did was buy a kite,with a tribal design,because I thought it was a nice design and a good price.Seems I have added to the already opened can of worms,oooppps.
 
NEX
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:10 pm

Helluva business plan them yanks have got, all the whingeing, whining an bullshittin drawing peoples attention to some real good kites their competitors are legally selling into the uk. I just been an had a look and a couple more of em will soon be on theere way here and a third the price of a Rev b and a lot better looking.
Rev wanna wake up its a market not some airy fairy unicorn set up, sell what people want at the right price to stay in business else your competitors will see ya off ya golden goose is gettin its ass kicked.
And all that crap about Rev quality Rev have pushed out there share of crap kites like some of them early Bs dear and nasty we aint forgot.
Do ya reckon D'Antonio will put right his boy quaas post about patents with some facts lol :badgrin:
 
jason247
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:11 pm

I've looked on Alibaba at 'Weifang Albatross' and the current lineup they sell has no Revolution counterfeits and mine certainly isnt. If they do it out of the back door or have done in the past so be it but I havent brought one and I dont know anyone else who has. I have albatross printed all over my albatross, it says it on the spars, it says it on the box, on the bag and on the sail. The dude on Ebay who sold me it is from Albatross kites.

As for quality anyone who tells you the ones I have are of substandard are as I've said before not telling the truth I'm afraid because they simply are not. In the case of the carbon wrapped rods they are actually better quality because someone took the time to get the weights right which I find most amusing.
I might get my camera out and square inch macro every part of an Alba and people can make up their own minds. Mine are as good as the day I brought them and if I needed something i'd either throw a 1.5 part on it or email the dude on ebay and he'll sell me anything I need like he has done before. IIRC he'll sell you a box of six 3wrap 16g carbon spars for £25.
I dont need a loving support network and I dont need to call America or engage in lengthy email convos. For £80, I can buy another entire kite for spares and still save myself almost £100.

Arguments thus far in a nutshell:

Albatross made counterfeit revolutions:
Yep, they probably did, but Mercedes helped bomb my family in ww2. I'm over it now and if someone offered me one for 1/3rd the price I'd be in it and driving away before the cheque cleared. Japan put my uncles out of a job when they made better motorbikes than they do in my country and completely destroyed an industry. I'm over it now and own a Japanese motorbike.
The US company Kraft brought my chocolate factory and threw me out of a job. Now they make it elsewhere and it doesnt taste the same anymore. But I'm over it now and eating that chocolate. I afraid I just dont care about the morons who brought rev counterfeits. If they had any brain or were in any way a legitimate kiter they would of known the difference and where to of brought a legitimate one.

Its a counterfeit:
No, its an Albatross marked kite of a different design which shares very similar dimensions to a Revolution Kite.

Its substandard quality made by blind mice who live in a cave:
No, its of excellent quality whos QC seem to be as good if not better than Revolution. If its made by 4 armed children who used to hand wash radiation then I'm glad I'm paying them to do so, they do a good job.

Its all about the Revolution community/family:
Kiters are my community, I care not what you fly or try to dictate what you should fly in the future, I'm just glad you fly!


People are well within their rights to come here and defend Revolution because Old Greebo's original post was about opinions I think. But please dont come here and treat us like idiots telling us what we should and shouldnt buy and that our Albatross marked products are garbage/counterfeit because they're not.

I dont want to start sounding like some demented Albatross Zealot so that is my final opinion Greebo, and opinions are like..everywhere ;)
 
jason247
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:23 pm

I did lol when I saw this...

Image

looks a bit like a .....vented blast? but a gazzilion times better looking? :)

Right, I need to get back to work polishing turds.
 
quaa714
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:55 pm

If you look closely I mention specific kites that I saw first hand.
Counterfeiting is illegal throughout the civilized world, is it not?
Directly copying, down to the labels on the spars, the sail pattern and logos is against the law, is it not?
Knowingly selling them as something they're not is fraud, is it not?

This could be about any company in any country making any product but it's about kites and that is something I'm passionate about. C'mon, let's be honest here. There are many reputable companies out there making many fine products that they stand behind. No problem there. But then there are companies out there in countries with poorly enforced business ethics that are knowingly going out in the market perpetrating a fraud. That's what I'm steamed about since it hits home with me.
Companies spend a lot of money to protect their intellectual property and rightfully so.
I can't speak to Revolution's actions or inactions with respect to that or illegal counterfeiting.

I can say that as a consumer I respect the right of any company from any country, including Germany and Japan, that manufactures a product that has so much appeal as to be wrongfully copied and counterfeited in their efforts to combat it.
And since it affects me directly as a passionate kite enthusiast, I purchase my gear from reputable manufacturers, distributors and resellers that provide exceptional value and customer service. Can a counterfeiter or fraud provide you that kind of commitment?

But I digress, it's a beautiful breezy afternoon and I'm off to a kite field where at the end of the day, not much else matters!!!!!!!!! Right? Can we all agree on that?
 
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:11 am

Counterfeiting is illegal throughout the civilized world, is it not?
Directly copying, down to the labels on the spars, the sail pattern and logos is against the law, is it not?
Knowingly selling them as something they're not is fraud, is it not?


Yes, yes, and yes to your questions, and I can't imagine anyone here agreeing that this kind of practice is acceptable (whether it concerns kites or whatever). But all the Albatross kites I've seen in person, in pictures posted by people, and on Albatross' web-site and eBay-shop have a sail pattern that's unlike any Rev, do not have any Rev logos/labels, do not claim to be a Rev in any way, and do not even use the word 'Revolution' in any of their marketing. So what is the problem with these kites, given that they do not try to pretend they're Revs, and also given that the Revolution patent has expired?
 
quaa714
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:46 pm

Dromel wrote:
Counterfeiting is illegal throughout the civilized world, is it not?
Directly copying, down to the labels on the spars, the sail pattern and logos is against the law, is it not?
Knowingly selling them as something they're not is fraud, is it not?


Yes, yes, and yes to your questions, and I can't imagine anyone here agreeing that this kind of practice is acceptable (whether it concerns kites or whatever). But all the Albatross kites I've seen in person, in pictures posted by people, and on Albatross' web-site and eBay-shop have a sail pattern that's unlike any Rev, do not have any Rev logos/labels, do not claim to be a Rev in any way, and do not even use the word 'Revolution' in any of their marketing. So what is the problem with these kites, given that they do not try to pretend they're Revs, and also given that the Revolution patent has expired?


Again, I can't speak towards the expiration or validity of Revolution's patent domestically or internationally so I'll leave that alone.
I'm not familiar with Albatross, their kites, spars, etc. or their business practices so again I can't comment respectively. Again, that is the prerogative of Revolution to pursue that avenue in the venue of their choice.
I have seen (and flown) a number of non Rev kites made by exceptionally talented sailmakers here in the states and the quality and build of these kites are excellent. Take a look at Alden Miller's Jimi Hendrix stack as just one example.......amazing!!!!!!!
I'm not begrudging of the talent and workmanship of individual's freedom of expression and while my taste for specific sail patterns or designs may or may not mirror others likes, I am against the blatant ripping off and sale of designs that do not rightfully belong to the perpetrator. That's the crux of it for me and In that light I fully support Revolution in their efforts to suppress those businesses because in the end their efforts mirror those of other companies whose products I purchase who are fighting counterfeit production of their respective designs and ultimately it is the consumer, me, who pays the price in point of purchase economics.
 
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Fungus
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:06 pm

i am on the bread line, being paid tuppance above basic :(
but i'm not that desperate that i would go to china for a copy quad :evil:

i would rather save up for a REV B PRO FULL VENT COLD BLUE FADE BLACK CENTRE ( its on my wish list, if my fairy godmother is reading)

i would call on organisers of festivals / fly-ins to discourage the flying of copies of any sort, instead to 'educate'

fungus :-)
w H ind c H ecks H ar 4 w H imps
 
jason247
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:49 pm

Yea, ban anything that looks like a Rev but isnt even if its not a counterfiet, go round 'educating' people about flying the 'real' thing. While we're at it why dont we just ban them from parks and recs too? Lets get youtube involved, we could get them to ban any 4 line kite vids without the official 'Revolution' logo. Maybe we could just ban anythign chinese? We could style this system like the Taliban in Afghanistan!

We could call it the Revaliban!

While we're at it why dont we make a forum then point out spawn of satan posts like this and sit there telling our Revaliban brothers to go out and 'Educate' people when they see them post dirge like this. Obey! its The revolution way!!



Right ima gunna stop saving for that B2 and im gunna get Albatross to custom make me a pure white chinese quad so I can spraypaint a giant set of boobs on it for the next kite fest I'll be banned from :)

EDIT:
Or maybe I'll get an all black one, with a faint piece of mesh across the middle which hide a pair of eyes! :mrgreen:
 
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Lex B
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:37 pm

Is history realy repeating itself??

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7756
remember: amateurs built the ark ..
professionals built the Titanic.

PLEASE......NO TAILS ....
 
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Fungus
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:50 am

We could call it the Revaliban! :lol:
pure white chinese quad so I can spraypaint a giant set of boobs :lol:
Or maybe I'll get an all black one, with a faint piece of mesh across the middle which hide a pair of eyes! :lol:

Jason thats funny :lol:

fungus :-)
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jason247
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:01 pm

Lex I think you might be right....

Thanks Fungus, I was thinking how funny it would be if I had to put on some modesty tape during an event to make it legal. I wonder if they'd sell? Hmmmm...:)

I think summing up for the Jury m'lud what we've arrived at is the fact a number of Revolution flyers in the UK are actively flying Albatross Quad kites. HoweverNONE here have said they are flying or own Revolution Counterfeits, posted pictures of them (apart from the example pic) and I wouldnt expect any of them to do so or to support that in any way shape or form. Its pointless, if you fly Rev style quad's you would own a Rev or I'd assume or be planning to get one, not much point in having a counterfeit.
If you spent money on the internet through a random dealer from chingwangonwithdacash and got your Rev brand new for £90 and it looks like a POS then you probably have a counterfeit and you are an idiot. We have quite a few good reputable dealers and kite stores in the UK and in the country of Europe who will be helpfull and sell you a genuine Revolution at an unreasonable price.

EDIT:

I cut this right down cus I dont wanna be ranting again and it looked like it. TBH i think that you fly what you fly, Revolution will have my money again and so might Alba. Yes they've borrowed/stolen/liberated a design but it'll never be a Revolution. They wont lose money from me. I just dont want to be lectured about my choices or deceived, its a free country as far as I know and I'm not going to be dictated too or 'educated' about my lifestyle..be it my obsession with boobs or not :biggrin:
 
sailor99
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:09 pm

I know Mr Junde pretty well these days. He is one of the principles behind Albatross for those who haven't met him. I am not aware of Albatross having made direct copies in the past, but I have only really known them for 8 months or so, despite rumours being circulated to the contrary. So i am happy to accept John's word that they have made knock offs in the past, although it appears those days are behind them. Perhaps Ben's visit educated them, although from what I am told they are more mystified and not a little insulted at that. Until today I had not flown or seen firsthand an Albatross. I have to say I was very favourably and unexpectedly impressed. So I have to say I think the accusations of poor quality are misfounded and potentially show a poor understanding of Chinese manufacturing which can be very high quality when well managed - I should know I have worked with Chinese manufacturers for many years now, although not in kite manufacturing contrary to the rumours being circulated to the contrary. Mr Junde was recently in the UK. He and another Chinese kiter flew over here at their own expense to run a series of traditional kite making workshops for children. They bought all the traditional materials for the children at their own expense. They ran a 'fly a kite day' in conjunction with Hampshire Council. And they accommodated themselves at their own expense. These do not seem like the activities of people who do not support UK kiting.

Contrary to the rumours I will and have supported revolution in the most sincere way possible - with a large proportion of my wallet. I have even done so when competitor products were available at vastly lower prices and as high/higher quality. But my loyalty has limits which are reduced by being dictated to and lectured with incorrect assertions about competitors. Unfairly rubbishing the competition doesn't work for me I'm afraid and I would much prefer to see Revolution out-compete them, which I know they can do. If you can't take the heat, you know what to do.
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