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jason247
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Location: UK

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:01 am

I think if someone wants to assume that because Albatross Quads are not the real deal thus must be garbage they have that right. They paid the money, they gets that right.
I've seen and read the specs of many a bad chinese Rev style kite and not been impressed with the wooden rods or bad stitching etc, also seen those copies above which I absolutely dont agree with.

Albatross however do make a bloody good quad, tolerences in the carbon rods are much better than in my Rev, stitching is nearly always exceptional and if you got both in whitesheet and flew them side by side you'd not tell the difference.

I think Greebo is right, most owners of china quads are also Rev owners who have either spent too much money or just want a bargain 4 line with Rev qualities to rag around with. If you didn't own a Rev first or never had the chance to try them together then you'd probably always be wondering if the Rev was better and would end up getting one anyway.
 
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Fungus
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:29 am

Dunstable next sunday ?i'd pencilled in to go to berrington
but at Dunstable there will be REV's and i love my REV's
probably see you on Sunday

fungus :-)
w H ind c H ecks H ar 4 w H imps
 
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Craig
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Re: Ebay >

Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:28 pm

daz larsen wrote:
Image


They look great (for a quad :P ) Rev could learn a thing or two!
 
beach
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:46 pm

This is Ben and I had to laugh the final photo is some knock off's I brought back from China and I hear the gentleman say how great his Tribal
quad is and how great Albatross is, my friend I personally took those kites from the sewer at the Albatross Kite Factory as well as sticks they had
with Revolutions logo on them they may make great kites but there still thieves no more no less. If you roll your eyes up at that well roll your eyes
to this also, we (Revolution) support events world wide with funds as well as donations ( ask China for that), we support fliers with as much help
as possible, and more importantly we try to grow kiting by sending me on the road to teach as well as mingle.... Support who you like cause you've
made your mind up but please understand you can call it anything you want but in my eyes if you are not part of the solution then your part of the
problem and when all the events dry up and all the folks move on to something else cause the fun went away let me know how that works out for
you.... I know Im going to get a lot of flack for this post but thats okay cause in my little mind a horse will always be a horse and a jackass will always
be just an ass..... Ben Dantonio beachbeach13@yahoo.com 619-750-8770 a kite flier as well as part of Revolution Kites
 
Kitelife
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Re: Ebay >

Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:13 pm

daz larsen wrote:
Fungus wrote:
a REV is a REV
a copy is a copy
the ones i have seen ( similar to above ) were crap, unless you have flown a real one and can adjust bridle etc to make it fly they would put off a first time quad flier and therefore damage the image of kites/kitefliers.

i like that my REV's fly straight from the bag and last.

fungus :-)


If your at Dunstable next weekend 16/17 July,you can try one of the tribal quads then decide.Have had to make no adjustments,flys great.I do not think this is a copy

This is a copy
Image


Consider this as well...

The "other" copies (tribals) are being made by the SAME wankers (Albatross) who are knocking off entire, established designs (like what Daz posted above).

There also confirmed reports of literal counterfeits, with the iQuad logo, my sig, gold labeled spars, the whole ball of wax.

So a core debate I believe, is do you want to support that kind of business?

Their copying isn't limited to Revs either, they have Benson and a bevy of other knock offs.

If a company was just making Rev style kites with 100% original graphics, I'd leave that to Revolution's legal team... But in this case, it's a much bigger issue and effects a great many people who have given YEARS of excitement and education to the international kiting community, unlike Albatross.
John Barresi
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Kitelife Magazine
 
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Old Greebo
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:03 pm

What mainly upsets me about Rev is that they are so anal about their designs.
Yes, they do market a few pretty ones, but they're all tabbed with a 'special' designer label and cost an extra £100 each. So far as I can see, the basic Revs have been bland and boring all the way back to their original designs.
My second beef is that Revolution Inc. started a Good Thing, but then they said 'We started it, so no-one else should have an opportunity to develop it'. Which is wrong. Selfish. Arrogant.
Development includes artistic development. Albatross have a more artistic approach than Rev. That alone (imho) gives them the right to develop their quad line kites and market them. If they maintain high standards of manufacture, and thir kites behave well, then they deserve to do well.
Copying and trying to pass off as someone else's work would be wrong, of course. If Albatross tried to sell their kites as Bensons or Revs, that would be wicked. But I don't think they do. What's wrong with taking features from a Rev (or a Benson) and incorporating them in a kite that aspires to have better graphics and comparable performance?

I'm grateful that Revolution "support events world wide with funds as well as donations". It's a good marketing approach, and it's sure to keep the original Rev kites well to the forefront until the other manufacturers decide to start doing the same. Event organisers are always happy to accept financial support from wherever it comes. You can bet your life that Rev will withdraw their support the very minute that they decide it's not giving them any financial advantage.

Every kite is, to some extent, a 'knock'off' of an earlier design.
Come on, Rev. Accept that you've started a worthwhile concept (and made your money while your copyright/patent protections held), but now you're in great danger of being improved on!
Brian. (Past it, but reaching back!)
Silver Fox 2.5; HQ Shadow SUL; Rev 1.5 SLE; Spiderkites URO; Etc...
 
Kitelife
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:27 pm

You managed to pass right over the primary item here... Albatross KNOWS they are copying multiple established products, along with countless other copied (non-Rev) products.

I'm surprised anyone can support their position, just for having some graphics that Rev doesn't... Every kite sold by them (original or not) continues to support all the stuff they are unarguably copying from Benson, Prism, Revolution, Into The Wind and god knows who else.
John Barresi

Editor/Publisher

Kitelife Magazine
 
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Old Greebo
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:56 pm

<<You managed to pass right over the primary item here...>>
No I didn't. Copying established products is a normal business practice. (vide Tesco/Sainsburys/etc 'own brands').
But Tesco own brands aren't usually prettier. Albatross are. They really are. So they have a marketing advantage over the products they are accused of unfairly copying.
Such copying usually works to the purchaser's advantage. Maybe Rev will follow the hints, and be persuaded to come up with some prettier designs within their standard range. Maybe they will even reduce their standard prices.
Or maybe not. Dyson vacuums are still ugly and atrociously expensive in spite of all the extremely cheap copies on the market.
Live with it.
Brian. (Past it, but reaching back!)
Silver Fox 2.5; HQ Shadow SUL; Rev 1.5 SLE; Spiderkites URO; Etc...
 
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uktotty
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:45 am

This looks awesome!

Image
Benson DS - Fury Full Size - Rev 1.5SUL - Rev 1.5 SLE - Alpha Plus - Cody - 3 Symphony's - 2 NPW's - Viper - Vento - Wild Thang - Flexifoils - Elliot Mystic
 
jason247
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:06 am

I respect the position from the Revolution supporters I really do but for me its about basic economics and value for money.

I paid almost £250 (400USD) for my 1.5 'B' which for me is a ridiculous ammount of money really.
What did I buy? I brought a brand, I brought a kite equivalent of an Apple Iphone.
Not only did I do that once I did it 3 times. I have 3 icons of design and I paid Revolution almost a thousand dollars for that privilage.

The funny thing is I found with my Iphone that I could get just as good for half the price if I brought an Android model and stopped following brands like my life depended on it. The same thing has happened here, I see china quads being flown just as well as Revs, I buy one out of curiosity and find they infact do fly just as good. I remember Apple fans telling me that Android phones were the spawn of satan and cheap copies of Iphones. I'm sure they probably told me they were garbage and made of twigs by children who live in a shoe.

You see I live in a world where I barely make enough to live and in a job which i go into every day wondering if it'll be my last..boo hoo poor old me eh. But Icons, iphones, Revolution branding, how much support they give and who copies who dont really matter to me much in my shabby rented house in my grey street.
All I wanna do is improve my crappy existance before I get too dam old and die as cheaply as I can so I can justify it to my wife and kids.

If that means I buy an Android phone or something from china which is 1/3rd of the price of the original product then I will. Make me a Rev for the same price or even double the price of a china quad and I will buy it endlessly. I just cant keep giving away silly money for the love of a brand or company no matter how much I like it.

Give me a counter argument, call me names, ban me from your forum, do as you will..but at the end of the day it wont change a thing for me. I'm still a man scratching a living and trying to live.
 
jason247
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:23 am

uktotty wrote:

This looks awesome!





He was selling those for £55 quid minus lines a month ago, I really wish I'd got it. I would of thrown my Rev SLE in and made a super high wind RevAtross b*stard :mrgreen:
 
Stan Doff
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:06 am

Not that I'm interested in kites shaped like bow-ties,nor am taking any position on copyright
but,I quite like this graphic
Image


Some company stats. towards the bottom of this page:

http://www.albatrosskite.cn/
 
quaa714
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:21 am

jason247 wrote:
I respect the position from the Revolution supporters I really do but for me its about basic economics and value for money.



Give me a counter argument, call me names, ban me from your forum, do as you will..but at the end of the day it wont change a thing for me. I'm still a man scratching a living and trying to live.


Boo hoo!!!!!!! We are all trying to eek out a living and enjoy our time here before we get to old. I see plenty of pilots over here that scrape and save their earnings in an attempt to buy the real deal. Owning an expensive piece of gear goes way beyond the purchase. It has as much to do with the support the company provides should an issue occur.
Yours is an awful argument for validating an illegal action such that trademark and copyright infringement are. The following is a counter point to yours and is not directly aimed at you but is being put out there for others to ponder/debate as well.

Copyright infringement is a despicable way to conduct business.....plain and simple. The decision to knowingly exploit the LEGALLY owned and recognized international patent of another company as well as blatantly copy said company's name on their inferior spars or using the name of an individual who within the protection of the copyright as well as the endorsement of the copyright owner, or for that matter, outright ripping off the artistic and creative design of master sailmakers that have painstakingly created a design that was endorsed by REV is a business decision that is, at it's core, illegal and immoral. There are other examples but these few are exceptionally glaring.

I've seen first hand, in person, the crap sails and spars that came back from China. I'm no arts and crafts kinda guy but I could sew better than that. They were shameful examples of a design that is LEGALLY owned by someone else. The patent and copyright are still valid internationally. Check it if you don't believe me!

You gents here are terribly mistaking value for a kite and legal proprietary ownership. That's what this is about. It's not about sitting in your basement and sewing a sail that looks similar to a Rev and being flown (not sold) only by that person. These companies are turning them out by the lot and ILLEGALLY using the name of another company as the manufacturer. When the time comes and Rev no longer owns or has legal right to the design that is one thing but to sell inferior product to a public that believes they are getting the real deal, that is a blatant ripoff. As a consumer, one has every right to expect that the quality and workmanship of their purchase is stood behind by the company that manufactures it.
So a company like the chinese one sells a kite to a buyer who more than likely doesn't know its a fake and didn't do his due diligence in researching his purchase, buys a "REV" with "REV" branded spars and the buyer goes out the first day and destroys it. The buyer goes back to the seller who in turns says, "contact the manufacturer. The buyer calls Revolution explaining the situation. You smart folks here can put the rest of the story together for yourselves........what's is Revolution to do at this point??????? THAT is why they closely guard their LEGALLY owned patent and copyright and they are totally within their rights to pursue legal recourse.

I am upset that the smart intelligent folks here are mistaking legality for perceived value of a clearly inferior product.
If you created, invented or contributed to the design and/or creation of a product that can be legally owned and copyrighted would you put up with others trying to infringe on your intellectual property that you so lovingly took the time to design and perfect?????

I am an unsponsored, unendorsed pilot of Revolution kites but I am an avid endorser of their product. It is exceptional and superior to the knock off crap out in the market. No one from the company is twisting my arm to write this or giving me swag for my commentary. I speak passionately about issues that tick me the wrong way; this issue is one of those. It could be Revolution kites or XYZ company.

The opinions expressed above are mine, though not mine alone as there are many more who feel the same way. You don't have to agree with me, you are entitled to your opinion as well, (keeping in mind that opinions are like assholes....everyone has got one and lest you think I'm not an asshole: well lets just skip the crap and acknowledge that I can be). That said, I can't see how anyone could argue that blatantly ripping off another's design is arguable???? You are as much a part of the problem for endorsing a false sense of value for an inferior product as the perpetrators who claim their products are the "real deal".
I'm happy to debate the issue as any of you see fit.

Flame on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Mercflyer
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:00 am

I don't make a lot of money and that makes quality and customer satisfaction very important to me. I would much rather frequent the shop that I can sit down with the owner or whomever and talk to them about the product I am buying, than drive up to a window and hand over my hard earned cash to a faceless person who cares nothing about the product they sell. Revolution and the Rev community in general are some of the most helpful people I have ever met in a hobby, I am saving up for my next Rev but I am ok with that because I know that when I do finally have enough to buy that next kite I will be backed 100% by the manufacturer of my kite. Can you go to a kite festival and fly that Chinese kite makers personal kite or even watch him expertly fly a kite he make by hand? In a community you help each other out by providing quality and and an assurance of satisfaction while not stepping on your neighbors toes, there is no community or trust if there is no personal relationship.
 
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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:32 am

I feel there is a world of difference between a company copying a Rev, copying sail designs, brand names/logos on sail and spars, and thereby passing these kites off as genuine Revs, which to me is an absolute no-no; and a company which sells Rev-shaped kites with sail designs that are unlike any Rev, and where Rev brand names/logos are nowhere to be found on the kite.

I've got an Albatross quad (the blue version of the one that Stan Doff posted). In terms of build quality it's as good as a Rev, in terms of flying it's about as good as a Rev (I've flown a Rev as well, so can really compare). Most importantly, nowhere on the sail or spars does it claim to be a Rev, nowhere in the marketing that I saw does it use the brand name 'Revolution' or try to pass itself of as a Rev. Given that, given that the sail design is much more appealing to me, and given that it was less than half the price, I bought it. Why should I pay double price for a kite whose sail design I feel is boring if a kite with a (to me) interesting design is available for half the price? And just to emphasize, the Albatross quad I have does not pretend to be a Rev anywhere on the sail, spars, or bag. If that had been the case, I would never have bought it, obviously.
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