Fractured Axel

After the acquisition of my KRD element and a long wait for a nice mud-free field and nice wind conditions, I've finally got around to flying my new Element.

I was expecting an out-of-the-ordinary kite in many ways and it does seem to be just that. I’m not an expert by any means but you’ve gotta start somewhere eh?

I can see that it will do wonderful flat-spins and will be very pitchy once I get the hang of it. Here, however is the reason for writing because I was a bit lost with my KRD element. I say that because I was having problems accomplishing the tricks I can do my other kites.

Now, I know this is notoriously an atypical kite, but this one just didn't want to pull on the lines at all, even in a decent wind. It didn't really want to take off and even when I got it in the air it had little to no pull. Well, I have readjusted the bridle and the results I've now got suite me better. Nevertheless, I'd really like to compare notes on the kite and how other people’s experiences have been.

After fiddling around with the bridle I have the following dimensions:
Uphaul 54.5cm
Outhaul 52cm (2nd knot is at 56cm)
Inhaul 64.5cm

How do these compare with stock and any one else’s favourite setting?

My model only has one standoff and also a keeper line between the uphaul and outhaul that is fixed on the uphaul near the anchor points but slides along the inhaul. (See the photos.)

How does this seem to everyone?

Cheers,

Jules

Jules wrote:

My model only has one standoff....

That's not normal.

... and also a keeper line between the uphaul and outhaul that is fixed on the uphaul near the anchor points but slides along the inhaul.

That is normal. But do make sure it doesn't interfere with the bridle. It should be slack when you hold the kite up by the tow points.

Chris did announce a revised version/setup for the Element but I've no idea what it is. Maybe it is a single standoff in that iteration.

I'll look over my kite tomorrow if it'll help. You are quite right that it is... challenging... even when right but in a good way.

Mike.

Switching to one standoff was part of the upgrade.

See those marks on the line in the second photo, on the uphaul. That's where the line should attach to the upper spreader fitting. The kite is sitting so far back I'm not surprise it won't fly.

Keithgrif wrote:

Switching to one standoff was part of the upgrade.

Then I really can't be of direct help here.

As a general rule, if you pull the bridle flat to the face of the kite with the upper outhaul and inhaul taut but the lower outhaul slack then the tow point should be somewhere around the lower spreader. If it's much further down then it is set very "heavy" and will take a gale to so much as take off, which considering the Element is a light wind kite would be A Bad Thing.

Mike.

Hi
from the pic it also looks like the upper spreader is not in its correct position. It should be between the stoppers and around the centre of the cut out sort of. The wear patch should give you a good idea of the location of the US. Hmmm
Best of Luck Mike

Coogee wrote:

it also looks like the upper spreader is not in its correct position.

I saw that too but for all I know it's part of the revision, just like ditching two perfectly good standoffs. The sail doesn't look too distorted by this new position so perhaps the US has been cut down in size

I think this kite needs to be reset to one or other spec. before you give it another go or you're just going to end up being highly frustrated.

Mike.

Thanks for all the useful comments to everyone.

Mike: I was also told by the seller that Geoff Goff had replaced the two standoffs for one as an improvement. I have written to Geoff twice to ask for advice but with no reply. He must be out collecting pearls in Croyden. If you follow me.

The sliding keeper line slides but not completely freely, I’ll loosen it slightly to rectify that.

After adjusting the bridle I was managing most of my tricks: Axels, half-axels, fades (but not very stable), jacob’s ladder (quickly), cascades of sorts. It was much better than when I first tried it. My initial thought was, “What the hell is this thing?!” It's already much better but not what it should be I'm sure.

KeithGrif: You commented on this kite when I was buying it:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11270&hilit=krd+element
I have absolutely no gripes with Tony but, the kite does need attention to get it flying properly.

I couldn’t understand the position of the marks on the uphaul either! I found myself out in the field pondering the use of them or the slap dash finishing of the last kite to leave KRD when they knew they were going under… Whatever, the kite is poorly set up.
Anyway, if I shorten the uphaul to the marks, I’ll have to vastly shorten the inhaul and outhaul in the correct proportions. I don’t think they would fall anywhere near the sweet spot. See image 2.

Mike: If you could just measure the bridle lengths for me? From the tow point to the upper spreader connecting point for the uphaul, tow point to lower spreader connecting point for the outhaul and the tow point to the centre ‘t’ for the inhaul, I’d be eternally grateful. I’ve had the kite out of the bag again to compare the point I fell at in the same manner as in your photo. You can see in my photo that I’m a fair way further out than you but approximately the same length on the uphaul. i.e. the tow point falls just below the spreader. I can ‘guestimate’ and adjust for the position you have in that photo but if I don’t know the length of the outhaul I’m still not completely sure I’ve got the sweet spot.

IMPORTANT!!
I’ve just noticed something that indicates that my bridle has been tied on the wrong way round! On my kite the prussic knot is on the junction of the uphaul/inhaul & stops on one of the two knots of the outhaul. In your photo, I get the distinct impression that your prussic knot stops at one of the overhand knots on the inhaul line that goes to the centre ‘t’ on your kite, am I right? This would also explain why the datum marks on the bridle are in the middle of nowhere on the uphaul on my kite. Confused? Not easy writing about all of that!!

Secondly, if you look at where you bottom spreader is in relation to the kite's sail, you can see that the bottom spreaders are considerably higher up than mine. Your spreaders cross the sail at the point of the translucent spinnaker whilst mine are further down. Unless the angle of the photograph has changed considerably. Was you APA fitting in the correct position?

Coogee: I hadn’t really paid attention to the top spreader’s position. You’re right in that, it isn’t situated between the two leading edge stops. I don’t know if that’s part of Geoff's last modification or not. I can always put a longer top spreader on and test that. My top spreader measures 50cm exactly. Just for the sake of comparison the standoffs measure 20 cms.

Mike: I’ll definitely make the adjustments to the bridle and give that a test. Especially if you give me the measurments. After, if I’m still dissatisfied with the results, I may move the spreader too; shame because it’s made and well finished. It’s 6mm, I think (from visual memory) with two sleeves glued onto the ends to bring the outside diameter up to 7 or 8mm.

Thanks again to everyone,

Jules

Think Geoff might respond quicker if you call him Chris.

The Element is a thing of wonder: wonder at watching Chris do what he does with it; wonder at really experienced pilots getting so much out of it; and wonder why when I flew the single spreader version at Crantock 2010 it took me 20 minutes to get an Axel out of it.

It's a challenging kite, but obviously not without its rewards if you're good enough (which I obviously am not ).

Hope you enjoy yours, Jules.

[quote="jaydub"]Think Geoff might respond quicker if you call him Chris.

Yeah, that could be a good tip!

The way I have it set up, which apparently is not as it should be, I can get it to trick but just not as I think it should do.
Something it won't do for example, is a flare to fade take off from the deck. When I give it the initial pop, and where most kites instantly rotate, my Element just reverses back into the air! I can sometimes then do a sort of half-axel from flare to get it the right way up to fly away but this seems unsatisfactory. Another of my kites, The Prism 4D, is similar in this respect, I don't know if this is due to weight distribution, aerodynamics or a combination of both. In flight, I can get a Jacob's ladder out of it, which has essentially the same move in the middle, but for take off it just does rotate.

These numbers are for the original release; not the reworked, revised and retooled version.

Lower outhaul - 52,5cm (one line that continues to form the leader~tow point - has two overhand knots on it)
Upper outhaul - 46,5cm (from US/LE connector to junction of bridle lines)
Inhaul - 58cm

The upper outhaul~inhaul are in one piece for both sides of the kite.

The range of adjustments for the upper outhaul is up to 4cm shorter and uses the standard KRD/Kite Studio/ Carl Robertshaw adjustment as detailed on pages 12 and 13. The lower outhaul could be up to 3,5cm longer (between the two knots). The inhaul/upper outhaul position is in the middle of +/- 3cm.

All four standoffs are 19cm, the US is a plain piece of 6mm pultrude cut to 55cm. The LSs are 70cm.

There are some pics. here to help and if I could negotiate the new, "improved", Facebookicised Google+ Photos I would have posted them directly. But life is too short to gain that knowledge before they go and change everything again.

If you have got a... tweaked... kite and you don't quite know what it has been tweaked to then I'd suggest putting it back into a known "good" setup and working from there. If someone, even the mythical Geoff , should pop up later with new numbers then you could use them then.

Mike.

Aha! now I know what you are on about on Google + (sorry about that.)

Vee wrote:

Aha! now I know what you are on about on Google + (sorry about that.)

I am not "on" Google+ intentionally, believe you me. If I can discover, easily, a way to upload pictures to some Google space without it being broadcast to all and sundry for No Good Reason then I will do. However, it isn't immediately apparent to me.

Mike.

Thank you Mike! That information looks brilliant! I'm not going to pull the kite out of the bag tonight but, I may well make the adjustments tomorrow afternoon. I can't really see why those settings won't be a great starting point. That said the top and bottom spreaders have moved but, the overall Frame is probably the same. The top anchor points look to be in the same place even if the bottom ones may be lower. I'll give it a try.
So, it looks like our two bridles are tied the same from what you describe.

I'll keep you up-to-date.

All the best,
Jules

That did the trick!!
I've dialled in the mensurations you gave me Mike and I've discovered the type of feel that I've read about of this kite.
It really wants to roll up or down in a yoyo in a shoe box! I haven't practised yoyo's much, but this kite makes learning them a pleasure. It rolls into a backwards yoyo really easily, I've never done that before. I also had it doing the most beautiful floating half-axels I've ever achieved. The Nirvana is really graceful for that but this thing just hung in the air whilst it rotated in slow motion, it seemed like a dream - incredible!
I adjusted the uphaul/inhaul lengths to get a feel of the effects that had. I found it tricky balancing the Element in a fade but after adjustment and a little practice it got better. I managed a few rungs of a Jacob's ladder. In fact I managed to get it to do most of the moves I know. I found if you didn't get your timing right on a half axel it could slip into a deep turtle that was tricky to get out of. Another thing, the way it flat spins is amazing. I had it doing those from other unsuccessful half axels - not sure how I did them but they looked nice, sort of like a taz! I don't know how to do Taz's but I'll be looking into it now because this Kite just looks like it's going to knock them out quicker than pork chops out of synagogues!
I'm really looking forward to getting some hours in on it.
Cheers!

Julian

Mensurations are always helpful. Especially from Mike.

Sent from a long time ago...in a galaxy far, far away.