Sport, Trick and Freestyle Kite Flying Forum

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Andy S
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Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:20 am

Agreed Jason, but do you not think that without pushing the technical aspect of trick flying then we're going to lose out in the connected freestyle side of things?
 
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ObijuanKenobe
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Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:30 am

Thoughful response, Jason. I see better what you're getting at. I am also glad you weren't being sarcastic.

This is the essence of what I am after, even if I didn't know it. You have made me feel like a bit better flyer, actually. I find my style is all about flow...that's why I haven't progressed with tricks so much in a year.

More later, but thanks for that.

obi
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"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return." L daVinci
 
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Jason
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Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:31 am

Andy S wrote:
Agreed Jason, but do you not think that without pushing the technical aspect of trick flying then we're going to lose out in the connected freestyle side of things?

I suppose so. But I think that most of the stuff I like to do, or rather that feels "right" to me doesn't require a kite that has been adulterated so much that it's a case of it barely flies but hey, check out the snap lazies. So it doesn't really bither me if things don't keep moving on. Things feel quite nice as they are at the moment.

I suppose it's the whole tricks versus freestyle thing. This is probably why I can't see the attraction of TricksParty because it's just "IN" perform tricks in pre selected order "OUT"

It's soulless.
Jason.
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Andy S
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Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:50 am

Jason wrote:
It's soulless.


Technical things often are. But that doesn't mean they're useless or even pointless.

I was reading the latest TP thread on GWTW this morning and half-worrying that we're going to get left behind in terms of TP competition. The other half said "Yeah, so what. You're having fun aren't you?"

Personally I don't have the time to commit to TP, just like I don't have time to commit to the technical competitions that STACK run. No matter what people say, the only way to do well (or even not look like a complete knob) at TP is to practice.

Well OT now. Happy to split this here to another topic if anyone wants to continue a discussion?
 
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kareloh
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Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:21 am

Jason wrote:
I suppose it's the whole tricks versus freestyle thing. This is probably why I can't see the attraction of TricksParty because it's just "IN" perform tricks in pre selected order "OUT"

It's soulless.

I agree with this to a certain extend. The compulsory tricks round of TP is not really freestyle flying, but you can do some freestyle aspects in the ballet-round.
I like the whole vibe at TP's here in Holland, and having fun is the most importmant aspect for most pilots in our region.

We have been flying a few trickouts now, just for fun, and that's just true freestyle. It's the judging by the other pilots which makes it really the essence of freestyle competion for me.

For example, a lot of Snowboarders boycot the Olympics (the snowboard contest is organised by the SKI-federation :shock: ). They feel that judging a sport which consists of style for at least 70% solely on the technical skill of the riders is just plain nonsense. The judges do give points for style, but if you can do the most spins in your jump and do them "back to back" you win. This is not pushing the limits of the sport, because the riders will only do the tricks they get most points for. The same happened for Olympic Free Style ski-jumping and practically killed the sport.

As an alternative, those snowboarders organize big Battle-style contests where the fellow riders do the judging... going really big, being creative or just do someting with loads of style can make you the winner.

Other example:
Aussie surfpro Taj Burrows didn't win the World Cup Tour because the Judges were not ready for his innovating tricks and creativity. That's wrong.

I'm a big fan of last mentioned competion formats. Like Jason said... it has Soul.
 
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Eddie Green
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Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:36 am

You know I am so glad I am not just a voice crying out in the wilderness. Jason you are my hero.
 
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audiorob
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Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:56 am

Jason wrote:
It's soulless.


:lol: Bullshit!

No, It's just not what you find fulfilling and soulful.

There are people who go out (like me) and will spend hours on end failing, and the one time you get that "ultra-tech" trick, it's like reaching nirvana. An age of adjustment, re-adjustment, searching to finally reach the end goal, often that other's deem unacheivable. There is nothing more soulful than the quest for a goal. (to me at least.)

"Ultra-tech" isn't about doing something because you can do it, it's about finding your limits and exceeding them. If anything, it's doing something because you CAN'T do it. Even the failures are exciting for me, everytime I fail I find something new that I wasn't doing right. That constant flow of learning is what I find enjoyable. So what if there isn't a variety of different tricks. There are a variety of failures, changes, executions that are exciting.

No different than someone climbing mount everest, rather than going out and climbing various surfaces in gyms hiking smaller peaks.


It really is incredibly small-minded to go off about how something is soulless, implying some sort of inferiority, because you do not understand and likely can not do it. If that was acceptable, then anyone who can do "ultra-tech" tricks should be on here demeaning the 'freestylers' for their "lack of skill". I don't see that happening anywhere. Not in kiting, not in skateboarding, not in snowboarding, not in even in fucking gymnastics. It is plain wrong to invoke "freestyle" to claim someone's style is somehow inferior. Refer to below.

Less is more in many things for sure. Less is certainly not always more when you're talking about someone's personally enjoyment of their hobby or profession.
Last edited by audiorob on Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Anyway this cake is great.
It's so delicious and moist
 
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audiorob
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Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:01 pm

On another subject.. Since when is freestyle anything but doing what you enjoy doing?

Perhaps I missed some sort of memo when freestyle became: "You do what I want to watch you do.".

All this talk about freestyle as some sort of exclusive style of flying that only occurs when someone does combo's or something out of the ordinary. I was under the impression that the pure essence of freestyle is that it is WHOLLY INCLUSIVE. If you are doing what you enjoy doing, and you're doing it without forced influence, you are freestyling.

So, did I miss some memo on the new defitinion or what?
Anyway this cake is great.

It's so delicious and moist
 
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Jason
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Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:11 pm

Rob, if you get enjoyment from spending hours on end failing over and over again living for the moment when you get that "ultra-tech" trick as you say you do then good for you. If that's what does it for you then great, keep on doing it. I'm not saying that you or anyone who enjoys that or enjoys TricksParty is wrong I'm saying that I personally find that a bit soulless.

Personally I find work/traffic/other people/life etc enough of a challenge that I don't need to go looking for more challenges in a pass-time. I do this to get away from all that.
Jason.
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audiorob
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Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:15 pm

Jason wrote:
Rob, if you get enjoyment from spending hours on end failing over and over again living for the moment when you get that "ultra-tech" trick as you say you do then good for you. If that's what does it for you then great, keep on doing it. I'm not saying that you or anyone who enjoys that or enjoys TricksParty is wrong I'm saying that I personally find that a bit soulless.

Personally I find work/traffic/other people/life etc enough of a challenge that I don't need to go looking for more challenges in a pass-time. I do this to get away from all that.


That's fine with me honestly.

I guess that's really just how I like to live. I even like traffic, figuring out the most efficient route through, side routes, traffic manipulation etc... It's like a game to figure it out :lol:

I do take quite offense at the idea that one style is inferior to another in most things. Styles develop because of what is available, conditions and the goal meant to be acheived. Pit style to style and you'll never have an even match unless they are derivations of each other or created in the same manner for the same things in the same conditions (then you're really just comparing variations of a style anyways).

I sound like some crazy tolerance advocate now :oops: :evil: How very unlike me :shock:
Anyway this cake is great.

It's so delicious and moist
 
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bryan beasley
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Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:30 pm

Nice debate, could have gotten all out of hand and personal. Well done Jason.

FWIW, there is some pretty technical stuff in the Trick or Treat DVD. Not as technical as we're getting towards now, but there none the less. Why then, is my very favourite piece where ABW 1/2 axels, accelerates a touch, then 1/2 axels the other way a few times?

Freestyle, fly your way (genius Ed), love it.

To compete however, there has to be a bench-mark. Redefining and setting (raising) that benchmark pushes the boundaries.

One leads to the other - then back again.

Bryan
 
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Zippy8
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Re: Pushing the limits...in BE

Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:54 am

ObijuanKenobe wrote:
Just wondering what your thoughts/experiences/ideas are about/with/pertaining to pushing further into tricks. Where are you guys?

I like to at least try anything that's new. Whether or not I then add it to my repertoire of regular flying depends on if I like the move. Personally I find quite a few of the wrap and rotate moves interesting rather than attractive.

How much of this will be kite driven vs. pilot driven?

Learning new moves can be very kite specific. Finding a kite that assists you in adding to your range can be vital. As a fr'instance, Rob's Mohawk helped me learn some stuff that I now do quite often but I don't really want to fly that kite regularly.

What I enjoy (and strive for myself) is Joined Up Flying, whether it be the very spirit of freestyle overcoming the flyer (never happened to me :( )or a finely constructed Precision routine. Envelope pushing tends to look disjointed - you're trying to pull off One Trick in isolation.

However those out at the bleeding edge tend to be the ones coming up with new stuff. I appreciate what they do but it's not what floats my boat.

Mike.
 
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jr
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Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:35 am

For all the guitar players out there, this is very similar to the "technique vs feel" debates that used to go on in the eighties, where the new brand of aspiring guitar-heroes would produce super-technical albums which were very impressive to other guitarists, but also not the kind of thing you'd want on a long car journey........
 
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Zippy8
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Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:16 am

So what is the kiting equivalent of fretwank ? :-k

Mike.
 
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audiorob
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Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:41 am

Zippy8 wrote:
So what is the kiting equivalent of fretwank ? :-k

Mike.



I think that means that the real 'show-offs' add a couple more strings ;)
Anyway this cake is great.

It's so delicious and moist