Fractured Axel

Watching the Dodd Goss Flightschool video he states that until you master push turns you will never trick.

Is this the case?

I am on my second set of spars from crashing trying this. If I watch the Psycho video with Andy Preston he does not seem to us push turns much.

Gary

hifi-gary wrote:

Watching the Dodd Goss Flightschool video he states that until you master push turns you will never trick.

Is this the case?

No, I wouldn't say that this is entirely true. Some trick envolve doing a push action to give slack on that line... I guess that this is what Dodd means.

But let's save your spars first....

When you first learn to fly you will be more often than not using a pull action to steer the kite ie, pull on the left line to turn the kite anti-clockwise, pull on the right to steer the kite clockwise. What you are doing is angling the kite so that one wing is nearer to you than the other.

You can create this same angle by 'pushing' the opposite wing away. Same angle = same rotation. So push out on the right will make the kite steer left, push out on the left will make the kite steer right.

If you're having trouble, then maybe you are not pushing out far enough... you have more leverage pulling then you do pushing.

I actually do a combination of pulling and pushing - ie pull on the left while pushing on the right and vice versa. This means you don't have to push out so much... perhaps give this a go too.

Hope this helps.

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the reply, I find with a pull turn - I can control the kites speed
of turn really easily and have the confidence to pull at any strength. Easy pull for a slow turn quick, pull for a sharp turn etc..

With a push turn I find that I am punching forward and then panic. Can you control the kite the same way?
i.e. slowly push forward for a large loop and quicky push forward for a quick turn?

I know it is just practice and confidence. I am hopefully meeting up with Jeremy in the next few weeks.
I think watching somebody else 'live' will more than make up for several hours video watching.

I feel like a 5 year old with his first bike at the moment (maybe I should dye those grey temples!).

Gary

The speed of the turn is more regulated by how FAR you push, rather than how quickly.

Also push turns are more of a slow push and then a quick return... but I mean 'slow' as a respective term... it's still a fairly fast movement anyway.

Try in slower wind - it's been fairly blowy this weekend... the kite will respond a lot more sedately in a little less wind.

hifi-gary wrote:

Thanks for the reply, I find with a pull turn - I can control the kites speed
of turn really easily and have the confidence to pull at any strength. Easy pull for a slow turn quick, pull for a sharp turn etc..

With a push turn I find that I am punching forward and then panic. Can you control the kite the same way?
i.e. slowly push forward for a large loop and quicky push forward for a quick turn?

Yes.. you can do exactly that.

Again, what you are trying to do is set the kite at an angle to the on coming wind flow. The sharper the angle you create, the faster the kite will spin.

When doing a push your arm pushing should be fully straight with the other arm close to your chest. The greater the distance between your hands, the greater the angle on the kite and the greater the turn rate.

hifi-gary wrote:

I know it is just practice and confidence. I am hopefully meeting up with Jeremy in the next few weeks.
I think watching somebody else 'live' will more than make up for several hours video watching.

As it is with most things, though you can slow down video which can be helpful.

hifi-gary wrote:

I feel like a 5 year old with his first bike at the moment (maybe I should dye those grey temples!).

But like riding a bike, once you've got it cracked you'll never forget.

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the reply - it was the 'cracking' it I am having
trouble with. I am keeping the local kite seller in business
with the amount of spars I am buying

I look at it as pull turn = curvy turns, combination turns = tighter, faster curvy turns, and push turns = corners. Regardless of the turn style you choose, the key is the speed you return to nuetral in order to maintain the heading you establish with the turn. Pull and combo turns are more fluid and relaxed, and push turns are an abrupt "out/in" move depending on the angle you want the kite to negotiate.

Another thought; turns are the means of moving the loaded sail to the place you want the sail to unload, do a trick or two, then reload and fly off. Dodd may well have meant that until you can get the kite to where you want to stall you won't be able to trick!

TeeCee wrote:

I look at it as pull turn = curvy turns, combination turns = tighter, faster curvy turns, and push turns = corners. Regardless of the turn style you choose, the key is the speed you return to nuetral in order to maintain the heading you establish with the turn. Pull and combo turns are more fluid and relaxed, and push turns are an abrupt "out/in" move depending on the angle you want the kite to negotiate.

If I understand what Dodd's putting across it's staged a bit differently...

Pull Turn - Curvy or spins
Push / Punch Turn - Can be either curvy or relatively sharp depending on the degree of punch and return
Combination Turns -Can be really really sharp & snappy - because they're only a snip away from the...
Snap Stall - Aggressive combination turn. Hopefully by this time you've got the feel of returning to a neutral position quickly (punch turn practice came in here) so the snap stall fits in comfortably.

And be sure you throw an armload of slack at the kite after the snap. The spin dumps the wind; the slack is what keeps it in the relative position you stopped it at. It doesn't last long, does it?

That Flightschool DVD is Hilarious. Dodd is a master kitesman, but he sure is a bit of a geek. 'flying with Dodd' and the bit in the car etc had me and my girlfriend in tears. Brilliant. You just can't make comedy like that!
That said, he is ace and its a great DVD to learn from.

Anyway, where were we...

Interesting topic. Never thought about it, but suppose that push-turns are a necessary part of trick flying. Of course if depends upon the kite of course. If I were flying a Matrix for example, most of the tricks start with an aggresive pull on one line or other. This also follows for kites like the Masque and R-Sky stuff. Benson kites are exactly the opposite, or at least that's my excuse for not being able to fly them particularly well.

Push turns take energy out of the kite (decelerate).
Pull turns put energy into the kite (accelerate).
Combo. turns change the energy balance.

You can even more fun by stepping towards or away from the kite during any of these turns.

Quite why push turns should be a prerequisite for slack line tricks I don't now. Stalls, or at least trustung your kite not to burst into flames just because you aren't in firm control of it, may be.

Mike.

Zippy8 wrote:

Quite why push turns should be a prerequisite for slack line tricks I don't now. Stalls, or at least trustung your kite not to burst into flames just because you aren't in firm control of it, may be.

I agree. I only find myself doing loads of push turns when just precision flying (shapes etc) or sometimes to recover a bad move. I guess I do use combo turns a fair bit.
Some people, including Dodd Gross, describe a snap stall as an exaggerated push turn. I'm not sure that I find that the easiest way of approaching snap stalls when learning. I think it?s more important to concentrate on the aggressive pull (snap) and the stack slack after it. But I guess different people, different kites...

Dom wrote:

Some people, including Dodd Gross, describe a snap stall as an exaggerated push turn.

Yeah ? I'm pretty sure that I've been using both hands to Snap Stall. Maybe I've been doing it wrong all the time ?

But I guess different people, different kites...

Dodd has a very good system for general, formalised teaching. He can get a group of people flying to a pretty good standard inside a day. But they all fly in the "Dodd Style", which maybe isn't want everyone wants I don't think of it as bad but...

Mike.