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Infinitive
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Obsolete trick nomenclature

Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:07 am

Thanks David for doing loads of work on the tricky wiki.

Yeah I know I'm repeating myself here.... but.....

I'm probably attracting the ire of the oldies, but I think the best thing that can happen to the wiki is a culling of the unused or unnecessary names. There are plenty of tricks there which are under the umbrella of another trick, or were named one sunny weekend in 1998 and then forgotten forever. The wiki was cut'n'pasted from an already out-of-date lexicon, and it shows. Either way, it looks terrible and doesn't serve its purpose of being informative about modern trick flying.

After all, the mindmap has (nearly) all extant tricks on it, and there hasn't been a clamouring to add the "flashback" or the "cuckooo clock" to that.

Please note objections below. 8)


Backslap - a messed up tipstand?

Broken yo-yo with Half a Twist - a fairly standard ground recovery, doesn't really require a name.

Cuckoo Clock - doesn't really make sense, sounds like another ground recovery.

Edge Fade - Not a trick, or at least the name isn't used, and is confusing.

Fade-in and Fade-out - unless these are odd indoor tricks, the name isn't used.

Fading toe-loop - A combination of other easily named manouvers, and the name is confusing.

Flash and Flashback - I think these are flatspins where the kite moves sideways. Not used and redundant.

Flat-spin - this is one of the few I think should be expanded, as a true "540 flatspin" is actually a rare trick on modern kites. I'm an advocate of accurate trick naming, we should call "540s" "flatspins"... after all, we don't call axels "360s", which is lucky as it would be more accurate to call axels "270s".

Flip-flap - Unused? The only name I've heard for this trick is "French flicflac"

Flip-over- unused.

Floating backturn - unused.

Ground-zero - unused.

Half-sister - unused.

Inverted backflip - unused.

Jump stall and jump start - unused.

Magic Carpet - unused.

Meteor - sounds like an ABW one here... probably a combo of existing tricks. Unused.

Miguel Rodrigez Coin Toss - bonus points for those who know who miguel is. (hi Mike). Unused.

Nose-in float - indoor trick?

Now-you-see-it-now-you-dont - I think this is a ground manouver where you do a pancake and then launch into a fade. Not used.

Otis - ?

Pop lateral - sounds like a backspin to me. Maybe a really cool backspin, but it is still a backspin.

Rebound - ?

Reverse three point spike - I imagine this is a 2 point landing facing the wrong way. Not used.

Reverse spike - a tip stab. Maybe a really cool tip stab, but it is still a tip stab.

Reverse turtle - fade? pancake? normal flying? Not used.

Rixel - An axel. If we gave a name to every angle of entry or window position to every axel............

Skywalker - ?

Sleazy lou - ?

Strobe - ?

Switch back - ?

Tequila Slammer - Tip stab.

Toe loop - ?

Tornadonew - ?

Turtle release - I presume this is recovering from a turtle.

Twisted sister - Now I've wanted to know what this trick is my entire life - apparently it is being able to recover from a tipwrap mid flight, which, though I have thought about about tried it virtually everyday since birth, doesn't work. I'd love an article on this one.

Vertical slot - a flatspin.

Vertical stab - a tipstab.


So, that was my conservative list of unused trick names. If Dave doesn't destroy them, I will! 8)

If I can remember my log in that is.
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Vee
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Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:47 am

Even as a precision flier I know that an axel should be 360, even if many people, me included, only manage an incomplete one. Does this mean I can now call my jacob's footstool a full ladder now? :P

Anyway from a purely users perspective, the "aka"'s and the "see this" are really clear, perhaps there should be more of them instead of taking names out. I quite like understanding that lots of people have discovered these things independantly and named them independantly too.

It certainly does serve it's purpose about being informative of Trick flying, besides how can you tell what this summer's trick of the year is going to be, or next? People revive things all the time.

I'd like to revive the "now you see it now you don't", but I do agree the name is unwieldy and not used, I've always called it a pancake to fade launch, which is hardly more wieldy when I come to think of it. If you want to call a two point landing a trick, then it is also deserving of a place.
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Re: Obsolete trick nomenclature

Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:59 am

Infinitive wrote:
I'm probably attracting the ire of the oldies....

I cannot imagine to whom you might be referring :P

Edge Fade - Not a trick, or at least the name isn't used, and is confusing.
Actually precedes the Fade but has been pushed out of the way.

Miguel Rodrigez Coin Toss - bonus points for those who know who miguel is. (hi Mike). Unused.
I claim my bonus points. He was one of the better/more influential flyers of The Very Early Days and maker of the loudest kite in all Christendom. I've never been sure what his Coin Toss does differently to anyone else's.

Skywalker - ?

Axels across the wind window.

Toe loop - ?

Axel that hits the ground.

Etc., etc. Back in The Day™ there were a lot of "new tricks" that were just Axels-at-a-funny-angle.

Twisted sister - Now I've wanted to know what this trick is my entire life - apparently it is being able to recover from a tipwrap mid flight, which, though I have thought about about tried it virtually everyday since birth, doesn't work. I'd love an article on this one.

Get the kite down flat, nose away and pop one line 540-stylee. If the gods are with you then it will flat spin and shed the tip wrap. If they aren't... It's not exactly a trustworthy move.

Mike.
 
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Kamikaze
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Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:22 am

I agree with Vee that all tricks should have representation on the "Alphabetical Menu" even the obscure and out of favour ones. In this way it will serve it's function as a Wiki. Having said that I am sure that there are still many tricks on the Wiki that are simply aka of other tricks and need weeding out as such.

The naming convention that I have used is the "Tricks Party" names as these have been well documented, hence the use of "540" instead of "540 Flat Spin". Aka should not be lost as it is our history and the way to do that is by use of "aka" and "See this" on the alphabetical menu.

The "Alphabetical menu" does look cluttered and does not promote modern trick flying, as all tricks are given equal weight. That is why a Functional index has been included in the Wiki. This should only display a tricks current name and not aka to help promote just one name and be laid out to both give a progression of difficulty similar to the "Mindmap" and promote modern trick flying by giving greater emphasis to current tricks. It could also be used to weed out different names for different angles of entry so simplifying it's use. I know this is a lot to be asked of a Menu and the Wiki is not he best for layout, but the current "Functional index" does non of these things and needs rewriting to represent these.

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Infinitive
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Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:30 am

I agree that we should use akas as much as possible.

But I disagree that it serves its purpose - when half the tricks in what is meant to be a definitive list either don't exist or are another trick, it is not being accurate. It's like having a Chemistry book from the 1700s where Calcium Carbonate has been given the name "shell metal", "infra-lime" and "ossicated dust". The book fails in its purpose of definition, because it was written while the subject was poorly understood.

The wiki is most useful to newcomers. Flyers who revive an old trick can use their names if they want to: they won't have to look it up in a wiki which doesnt give a definition anyway.

Tricks are not uncharted territory, and we can be fairly certain that any revivals or new tricks will be combinations of the terms already used in the mindmap.

A pancake to fade launch is more wieldy, by two syllables, but even if it was longer in syllables, at least I can work out what the trick is from its name. 8)
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Keithgrif
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Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:56 am

Pancake to fade launch is more descriptive and so is accessible to a new flier who knows a pancake and a fade.

I have always had a bit of an issue about obviously combinations of existing tricks getting a new name which IMPLIES a completely new trick.

But what do I know, I fly precision.
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Kamikaze
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Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:12 pm

Deciding what name should be used for a trick and what names then become it's aka's is an important function for the Wiki to play and should be debated. A good case is the "Miguel Rodrigez Coin Toss" or should that just be an aka for the "Axel Take off".

Some tricks that are combinations of others and are now tricks in there own right an example of this is the Jacobs Ladder, which is both modern and representative of trick flying.

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Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:58 am

and what about new tricks? Is there a format to have them presented so the community recognizes them as tricks. In the past few months I've heard people mentioning something, haven't a clue what it is, where did that come from? who invented the trick, what's it's history, how do you do it.
 
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Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:51 am

The easiest way to present a new trick is to video it. The golden age of inventing tricks is past, but the age of putting existing tricks into complicated and novel combinations is what competition is all about - if you want a format for presentation, then competition is it 8)
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Kamikaze
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Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:42 am

Yes that is a good idea as I have stated above all tricks should be included in the "Alphabetical Index" will equal weight to all.

A method of showing that a trick is new and give credit to it's inventor could be to have a category in the functional menu for new tricks. A trick would say last in there for one year and could include history etc of the trick a video would also be nice along with the rest of the Wiki info eg execution so we can all have a go at flying the new trick.

An example of a new trick that could be added to such a menu is the "Grizzly"

http://www.fracturedaxel.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8370

David
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Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:22 pm

I think nailing things down is kind of difficult really. For many of us still freestyle is a rather flexible post-modern thing where moves and tricks get strung together in random and reactive combination's.

My latest is the Nietzsche.

I just put the kite up, look at it, and then go for a beer.

Seriously, legacy trick names are helpful somewhere. Anyone reading old reviews of kites, or articles on line will hit terms like Poison Ivy, and various variations on terms for cascades for example.

Folks may not fly those variations so much these days (a pity perhaps) but they are as much separate tricks as some modern variations perhaps.

Despite TP definitions a cascade can run anything from 1/4 axels to 3/4 axels, can rise, fall, ore travel across the wind window. Now maybe all these variants should have names. Or we say 'Eddie is knocking out some gnarly rivered 3/4 cascades today'. Whatever.

There could be more 'Freestyle Variations' noted. So an Insane is a lovely trick which is prefigured I guess by a Latham - A controlled wing tipwrap spin on high wind high aspect ratio kites that can be snapped out of a tip wrap.

But the whole thing is kind of imprecise. I used to love Comete take offs back to tip. but have never seen a name for this.
 
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Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:36 pm

Sorry to clarify.

I suggest that 'obsolete' / alternative names and variations get put in the body text (pretty much as they are). The search function will bring them up.

Something like Cascade should certainly have a 'Variations' section with some notes.
 
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Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:30 am

Kamikaze wrote:
An example of a new trick that could be added to such a menu is the "Grizzly"


Hmm but only one person calls it a "Grizzly", the rest of us call it a double ladder, (or a stairway to heaven?), or, (by my opinionated preference) it doesn't need a name at all as it just another advanced combination. Giving the combo a name doesn't help in identifying or explaining the move, in some ways it is like harking back to "rixels" and "skywalkers" again.
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Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:48 am

Kamikaze wrote:
A method of showing that a trick is new and give credit to it's inventor could be to have a category in the functional menu for new tricks. A trick would say last in there for one year and could include history etc of the trick a video would also be nice along with the rest of the Wiki info eg execution so we can all have a go at flying the new trick.


I am on a mission to be as contrary as possible, and I disagree. For one, there are no new tricks, and certainly not enough to require a new section to contain them in. Secondly, any new tricks (combos) (eg Piero's sleeping yo-fade launch) are new because they are melanges of moves which are difficult to make consistent: there is no need to make a section telling people how to do them, as it is obvious how to do them (since tutorials for the component moves are available in various places, eg randy g's tutorials, or articles in the wiki itself) once you can yo-fade and sleeping beauty launch (another teeth grindingly bad trick name.... what were you all on? 8) ).
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