Sport, Trick and Freestyle Kite Flying Forum

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Music on VF entries

Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:07 pm

hezz wrote:
Perhaps the rules should state, no music allowed - use whatever background sounds are in the video (personally I would like to hear the surroundings / the wind / the flyers cursing! :-P )


(Jumping from the 20MB thread)

I think that music on clips is good. Firstly it lets the flyer express some individuality.

Secondly, and more importantly, I think that if VF has a progressive future it is in premeditated routines, regimented by music. When we see truly great solo displays by the likes of Debray, Goff and Mayet, it is because their flying is strictly controlled by the music: it isn't anarchic "whatever trick my kite is in position to do I will do". The ungoverned flying of VF I feel is holding it back, as I've already suggested in another thread, even the very best of us look undisciplined. Perhaps I am missing the point of freestyle, but I'll admit I'm getting bored of watching people flying without the discipline of a deliberate routine, theme or tempo.

Unfortunately, our sport with its reliance on fairly specific wind conditions makes getting a clip of casual flying difficult, let alone planning, practicing and capturing a one minute premeditated performance. Maybe each VF should run for longer to allow these things - I've been finding them very quick-fire recently (but then I have been much busier!).

Discuss. 8)
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DWayne
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Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:34 pm

Selecting a song, devising a routine that fits with the song, and then getting it on video is a lot harder than just going out and flailing about for a minute. IMO that might discourage participation.


Denny
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Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:29 pm

It's not a rule - just a way of progressing and defining flying as being better than the others. Don't mean to sound rude, but none of the videos this round were "holy shit that is a winner", it was just a nebulous blob where some were better, some were worse.
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Yan
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Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:45 pm

Is it still freestyle if it's a planned ballet?
 
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DWayne
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Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:42 pm

Yan wrote:
Is it still freestyle if it's a planned ballet?


As long as the pilot planned it, I'd say yes.
If it were a compulsory routine everyone had to fly, then I'd say no.


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ObijuanKenobe
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Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:30 pm

I think in principle, of course I would give many more points for flow that followed music. But as Denny points out, this is something that is really up to the flyer to pull off, and doing this is no small feat.

And I can also agree with Al, there are very many more 'great' minutes...and not one clear 'wow' submission.

I think one of the things that is harder to gage if you don't have experience with some of the kites is how much credit to give for tricks which are 'harder' on some kites than others. While I have all sorts of respect for Piero's taz cascade x4, doing this on the Talon would be something I had never seen...and would be scored higher by me.

I think I should shut up now, as my scores are not done. :)

obi
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Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:36 pm

ObijuanKenobe wrote:
While I have all sorts of respect for Piero's taz cascade x4, doing this on the Talon would be something I had never seen...and would be scored higher by me.


I disagree with this. It is not about how difficult the flying is, it is about how good it looks: if someone made a video flown with an aluminium and tarpaulin kite, I would not mark them higher than an identical entry flown with an easier to fly high-end kite.

This is where I find freestyle is currently unprogressive - since there is no true definitions of "beauty", only "complication" in our flight, there is no real goal to aim for. We aim to do more difficult manouvers, which are rarely better looking manouvers.

I don't know anything about gymnastics, breakdancing or ballet, but I can tell the brilliant from the good in those sports/arts, because what they do is based on beauty. Which yes, often arises from complication but is never based on it. And when there is complication it is guided by the music: imagine a ballerina or a gymnast arriving for competition, and doing a routine - without music - of non-stop flips and rolls and the most difficult tumbling, just because it "felt good" or "took a long time to learn". It would look rubbish, and it would be impossible to tell the good from the great. Which is what I see when I see freestyle kiteflying.

Don't mind me I'm just having a crisis of faith and trolling to get over it 8)
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kitegem
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Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:22 pm

I'd say no.

True freestyle is extemporaneous IMO.

To clarify:

If by planned you mean on the spur of the moment, then yes, again IMO, that would be freestyle.

If you mean sitting down and figuring out a routine, no, not freestyle IMO.



Yan wrote:
Is it still freestyle if it's a planned ballet?
 
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DWayne
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Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:58 pm

I agree with Obi. "Degree of Difficulty" should be a factor in the technical score.
And while I agree that aimlessly flailing about is freestyle, its not one likely to produce flow.

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Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:49 am

Oh but Al, we are SO on the same page here! And here's some trollin' back at ya!

The problem I have with (sticking with my own example) the Cosmic taz machine is that it can be done very poorly without snagging the lines. This IMHO means that you can squeak out a taz cascade while not really giving me anything that I'd call beautiful. I'd rather see one perfect taz than four done for sake of 'pulling it off'. Sooooo often while flying my own Cosmic, I have seen this lame, floating sideways, not flat pseudo-taz on that kite that I don't even count these anymore.

I find with this trick in particular, that on kites where it's hard to miss the snag, it HAS to be pretty to go around. On the Cosmic, this is clearly not the case. That being said, there are some great taz machines to be found in this round's submissions.

I am all about the pure beauty of the flying, and besides my rather mediocre skill level, I suspect this is why I do so poorly in this context. I simply never practice the full on tricking style of flying...ever. Normally, I fly corners, hit landings, and half axel with the occasional trick in between. While this is nice if you are sitting on the grass watching me, getting a minute which 'holds up' to VF 'standards' always seemed very tough to me.

Piero may be solely responsible for getting us to this point. (Props to him.) His VF 11 video was flawless. His VF 8(?) video on the DS was also stunning. The bar has been to beat him for the last seven rounds. And from my perspective, if you were going to beat him, you needed to at least have a trick list that could stand the bright light of his. Admittedly, I am still thinking while trapped in this model, as is evident by my last post which used the words 'something I haven't seen', implying again only technical achievement rather than what I'd really like to see...real control and style combined in the flying.

If folks are prepared to really SCORE for flow and beauty, and even choreography, then VF does have a progressive future, as you so aptly called it. However, I must agree, at this stage it is more of a FREESTYLE TRICKOUT. It should be said here...this little contest is working well as is evident from the 34 entries this round.

I have ZERO complaints. NONE. But I am with you here, Al. 100%. I think I made a mistake this round for sure. I forgot that freestyle is exactly that: flying your way. I should have been flying my corners and landings even if that wasn't going to win...because that is my style. I had that footage (even flying to music), but I deemed it too trick-light and was afraid of placing in the bottom three. Instead, I submitted trying to conform to what I thought VF required. Next round, I'll submit something more virtually MY style. I think this will all work itself out in the end if we all stick to this rule of thumb. It's we, the flyers that ultimately determine in what direction VF goes and who wins.

Great discussion...which has me really raging for next round already!

obi
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Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:11 am

I feel that one of the strengths of VF as a competition format is that it offers the flyer complete flexibility: if you wish to plan a routine to a set piece of music then you may; if you wish to fly about for a minute or so hoping to avoid the ground most of the time and slap in some "car washing music"* on the video then you may do that too. From what I've heard most people do something in between - they have an idea what they'd like to fly but it's not heavily structured.

I really don't think VF was ever intended to be a hardcore competition, layered with rules and regulations. At least a big part of its appeal is that it avoids these things.

Previously VF has been accused of being a "who can do the most tricks in a minute" competition. It isn't. It's about seeing good flying and knowing it when you see it. How it comes about isn't really that important, is it ?

Mike.
* car washing music - no-one washes their car to the music but it's there in the background.
 
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kareloh
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Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:47 am

Well, i was thinking of doing just that...
Fly a chunk of my TP ballet (which is mostly improvised normally anyway) but then there's the 1.30 min. timelimit. It's quite hard to do a freestyle routine in such a time a make it look nice, you need some flying there and that costs valuable time.

I do prefer the video where there's some actual flying, but it's hard to combine the 2.