Fractured Axel

It seems that there is some confusion over what constitutes a suitable video so I'd like this cleared up, please.

The few (and I'd personally like to keep it that way) rules are here and the point of contention revolves around the 20Mb limit and hosting larger alternatives. Let me lay out a few things:

● Hosting the videos in one place means not having to hunt around YouTube, Vimeo, personal webspace, personal ftp sites, Rapidshare, YouSendIt, etc and deal with the vagaries of each location.
● GMail can handle 20Mb attachments. VF uses a GMail account so all the videos can be e-mailed in, not hosted.
● You can make a 1280x720 minute and a half video fit under 20Mb and still look good.
● I have a fast 'net connection, others don't. On basic broadband the VF13 ZIP file would run into hours.
● Monster size and bandwidth videos need a lot of PC power. Not everyone has this.
● You're supposed to be judging the flying, not the horizontal resolution.

But... if people want to make and can arrange their own hosting I've got no problem in letting them put some FullHD video out for those who want to see (I'll link to it on the video page) as long as a <20Mb video is available. I like looking at good quality kite videos and, given the choice, I'll watch the HQ version. But I'm watching the flying still.

Unless I've really misunderstood things VF isn't supposed to be a video-making competition. Anything that's reasonably in focus and above postage stamp size should be fine.

Thoughts ? The alternatives that occur to me are:

● No change
● 20Mb limit is absolute, no alternatives
● Free for all

Mike.

Leave it as it is. It seems to be working rather well.

Denny

I vote for no changes.
I have had problems getting my video under 20 Mb, but I managed.
And as you say... it is not supposed to be a videoquality competition.

I'm with Denny and Martin. Leave it as it is.

...but after having watched and scored the videos, here's my suggestion...

All videos should be shot from a judge's point of view, from behind the pilot (kite).

When shot from another angle it can be hard (sometimes close to impossible) to see what the kite's doing in the air.

....my 2 cents anyway...

No change.

If people want to host their own HQ version then great, but they must submit a <20Mb version to VF.

aerialis wrote:

...but after having watched and scored the videos, here's my suggestion...

All videos should be shot from a judge's point of view, from behind the pilot (kite).

When shot from another angle it can be hard (sometimes close to impossible) to see what the kite's doing in the air.

....my 2 cents anyway...

I agree. I don't think there has to be a new rule... maybe we can just put it in the pointers.

I think mama has a point. No rule necessary. Can't see what's happening? Reflect it in your score.

Too many rules will discourage participation. It's a good pointer, esp. for first timers. But let's try to keep the requirements to a minimum, and let scoring be the way these things get sorted out.

Mike's point is most relevant here. VF is NOT a video contest. It's a freestyle kiting contest. If I can see what the kite is doing, I can score the vid. If I miss a few choice moves because the video is poor (or the kite leaves the frame for a few seconds), that's too bad, but it should not preclude them from participating (even as it may prevent them from getting the place their flying might deserve).

obi

I vote no change. I had to fiddle about a bit with bitrates and stuff to get mine (just) under the 20mb limit. But I agree that it shouldn't be about "who can make the best kite flying video" it's supposed to be about "who flies the best* 60-90 seconds of freestyle". BUT with that in mind...

I can't give you credit for the excellent flying you did out of shot, I can't give you credit for the excellent flying you did while you were so out of focus I couldn't tell what the kite was doing and I can't give you credit for the flying you did where the kite was too small to see. The same goes for "unusual" camera angles. If I find it had to tell what the kite just did, I'm less likely to score it well (but I am willing to watch it several times to try to work it out). I believe this is covered by the VF guidelines. I don't tend to come down too hard on excursions out of frame since it's very difficult to avoid with a tripod, and if you have a cameraperson and they let you go out of frame it's not really the pilot's fault either. I just apply the guideline that if you are out of shot or I can't see the kite you can't get points for that bit of flying... That's just my personal interpretation though.

I think we should be very careful about getting too prescriptive with the rules or we run the risk of disappearing up our own backsides and losing sight of the objective of the competition which is to have fun and share our flying with others... (I think)... After all, the major prizes are usually drawn, indicating an emphasis on taking part (no disrespect intended to the honour of winning VF).

That said, if the download of the videos is so difficult as to prevent (or deter) some folks from taking part, I'd support a mechanism for minimising the downloadable file size - perhaps by hosting all the videos on YouTube or Vimeo so they get squashed to a common format, r by a reduction in the file size limit (but I don't think the availability of bigger file size versions is a problem). After all, I think it should be as inclusive as possible.

Just my random ramblings... I'll shut up now and get back so scoring VF13...

* Best being a hugely subjective term in this context...

I obviously took too long to type that. I could have got away with ^ what Obi said...

Obi said it!

I submitted two videos in for voting, a std and better quality and Mike only published one of them. so I enquired why was the better quality one not published and he told me it was too large. ie over 20Mb.

But... the rules state; "If you want to host another, larger file as an alternative that's fine too." yes a std and better quality alternative for those who like to watch better quality during voting.

But Mike told me it's being reserved until later apparently. Why? it's my entry to the competition. If I want to do an extra footage of unused cuts for show I'll do those later.

I'm hosting the file (like it says its ok to do in the rules) and I expected the entry to be published at the start of voting like everyone else's.

So - If you're not going to publish larger files for voting then you should remove the line in the rules that says it's ok to host another, larger file or people may think it's ok to send in their entries as larger files. Right?

Thank you

Even as someone who was chastised in VF12 for submitting a too-large file, I'll still vote for keeping the 20mb limit.

And I'd agree that we don't need another rule to put the camera behind the pilot, but a mere suggestion instead.

The one thing I'd like to give more thought to, though, is how to get the videos up so that non-competitors have easy access to them. I know they can download the zip or the individual files. But, it would be great if contestants would be willing to upload their own entries to a video sharing service like Vimeo or YouTube as well. That way, the entrant list could include a link to download the original video, or watch it online.

The trick is, most of the video sharing sites are very strict about only allowing the copyright holder to upload the video, so it's not something that could be done as a batch process.

Mike, if the contestants were willing to provide you with links to videos shared online, is that something you'd be willing to add to the round-specific pages as they came in?

I'd like to add one more thing to this debate... While a constructive and open discussion about changes to the rules is healthy, we (the competitors) should be careful that we don't turn this into a big enough problem that Mike thinks "I could do without this hassle" and dumps the whole thing. I'm sure Mike is big enough to look after himself, but I think it's worth remembering that he runs this competition voluntarily and if he decided not to we (the competitors again) would not have benefitted from the prizes which have been awarded this year (worth several hundred pounds). It’d be a shame if a difference of opinion or interpretation of the rules were to tarnish the worlds most popular* freestyle kite flying competition.

That said – carry on…

* with 34 competitiors this must be a fact - surely

I reckon the 20mb limit is fine, like ben and most others im sure, I had to mess around with settings to get it under the limit which is no problem and if it makes Mikes job abit easier im all for it.
The angle thing shouldnt be a rule but a suggestion and be reflected in scoring, I know my entry was slighty off to one side this was because the 1 bit I deemed good enough to enter was just when the wind decided to move direction and I wouldnt have entered if it had been a rule.

I have always put my own entry on the tube after its been released anyway and I would be happy to upload it elsewhere if a place is agreed.