Sport, Trick and Freestyle Kite Flying Forum

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Ca Ike
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Re: VF 17 Videos and discussion

Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:29 am

kalle wrote:
Last time it was the easy taz-machine on the sin, now it is 1,5 seconds out of frame without doing a trick after the start. I mean, what`s wrong with flying a circle before the first trick?

Maybe I broke the "out-of-frame"-rule (which is hard to say, because there is no exact amount of seconds written down in the rules [you really should do it to prevent those discussions!]). But saying I broke the "start-on-the-ground"-rule is simply not right, imo. I started on the ground, flew a circle and started a constant trick-kombo for over a minute without leaving the frame at all.

A circle is a trick( figure category) even if its a simple one but it was out of frame and I'm sure everyone in this round judged it accordingly just like I was judged for my out of frame at the end of my entry.
 
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ObijuanKenobe
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Re: VF 17 Videos and discussion

Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:10 pm

No new rules. If you (as a entrant and judge) want to score out of frame stuff lower, fine. You don't care about those details...fine. I think that is the easiest way to solve this problem.

And as far as 'not doing anything' flying, that's also a weird thing to discuss. I hate watching videos where all folks do are JL variations. That is boring to me. If that were kite flying, I would have stopped years ago. Flying is control in corners, sharp half axels, landing, and countless other details that are just plain absent from many 90 second ladder-ganzas.

But I didn't enter this round, so this might not mean much.

obi
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"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return." L daVinci
 
Ca Ike
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Re: VF 17 Videos and discussion

Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:30 pm

ObijuanKenobe wrote:
No new rules. If you (as a entrant and judge) want to score out of frame stuff lower, fine. You don't care about those details...fine. I think that is the easiest way to solve this problem.

And as far as 'not doing anything' flying, that's also a weird thing to discuss. I hate watching videos where all folks do are JL variations. That is boring to me. If that were kite flying, I would have stopped years ago. Flying is control in corners, sharp half axels, landing, and countless other details that are just plain absent from many 90 second ladder-ganzas.

But I didn't enter this round, so this might not mean much.

obi

Yep this is where I sit in my position. I started in stunt kites back in 86 when kick turns and the flare-180 turn were the top tricks and precision figures were what competitors and teams did. Quad line kites were coming out for the fancy stuff and what is known as crash recoveries now were known as "ground work/tricks" then. I came back this summer after a long sebatical for RL stuff to find myself a novice again with the advancements made. There is a lot more to flying than back to back flip tricks. The idea that flying figures, be it a circle, cuban 8, stall turn/hammerhead or what not, is "vacant flying" now, boggles my mind. If you go by kite makers defenition of freestyle, then based on that its a blend of precision, rotational tricks and pitch tricks. PRetty much all freestyle kites are designed to be able to do all these fairly well. HOwever, there is only so much you can do in 90 secs, depending on pilot skill level, and honestly I think everyone that entered did the best they could with their flying conditions and skill level. Over all it was a good round.
 
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Doc James
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Re: VF 17 Videos and discussion

Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:47 pm

I have to say, since prizes came in (not that they're a bad thing), VF seems to have become more serious and could be in danger of becoming less fun....or is it just me...
Kite Bag: Deep Space, Solus, Widowmaker, Gem UL, Akuji SUL, Lynx Feather, Rev 1.5 exp
 
tpatters
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Re: VF 17 Videos and discussion

Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:34 am

Ca Ike wrote:
There is a lot more to flying than back to back flip tricks. The idea that flying figures, be it a circle, cuban 8, stall turn/hammerhead or what not, is "vacant flying" now, boggles my mind.


Since I introduced the "vacant flying" term in this thread..........I totally agree with you. What I was referring to was flying that does not fit into the trick or precision or even transition categories. Vacant flying is flying with no discernible purpose.

Both mad tricks and precision and accuracy are impressive on their own, put together well, its amazing. Personally, I think that is one of the key reasons that David has done so well in the last 2 rounds - the flying is precise and controlled without wasted effort, it all flows together well with sharp turns, corners, and transitions as well as complex tricks. Furthermore, it looks polished and practiced - freestyle routine if you will.

It raises the bar - not only mad tricks, but they need to be placed into a well woven fluid combination of sharp flying as well as other tricks.
 
tpatters
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Re: VF 17 Videos and discussion

Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:48 am

Doc James wrote:
I have to say, since prizes came in (not that they're a bad thing), VF seems to have become more serious and could be in danger of becoming less fun....or is it just me...


The actual competitors seem to be having fun, no? I just love to see what folks put out there. At least that my perception.

The only complaint that I've ever heard was around out of frame flying. I've called for it before - if we are going to have a rule about it, then it needs be specific or just this sort of thing will continue to happen. Right now we have something like - "We'll out of frame is kinda-sorta ok and must really be egregious in order for a video to be rejected, but we will not in any way define what egregious means. Just submit the entry and we will let you know". It's no wonder folks get bent out of shape over it - if it is a rule, it should be clearly defined or just removed all together.
 
Ca Ike
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Re: VF 17 Videos and discussion

Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:45 am

tpatters wrote:
Ca Ike wrote:
There is a lot more to flying than back to back flip tricks. The idea that flying figures, be it a circle, cuban 8, stall turn/hammerhead or what not, is "vacant flying" now, boggles my mind.


Since I introduced the "vacant flying" term in this thread..........I totally agree with you. What I was referring to was flying that does not fit into the trick or precision or even transition categories. Vacant flying is flying with no discernible purpose.

Both mad tricks and precision and accuracy are impressive on their own, put together well, its amazing. Personally, I think that is one of the key reasons that David has done so well in the last 2 rounds - the flying is precise and controlled without wasted effort, it all flows together well with sharp turns, corners, and transitions as well as complex tricks. Furthermore, it looks polished and practiced - freestyle routine if you will.

It raises the bar - not only mad tricks, but they need to be placed into a well woven fluid combination of sharp flying as well as other tricks.
And this is why I gave him high artistic marks as well as high tech marks. It was a well blended routine(given the time constraints) that was fun to watch. I'd be interested to see what all of you could do with a standard 5-10 min routine a lot of competitions and expositions allow (basically song length). However in this comp 90 sec is about the max you can go.

Thanks for clarifying what you meant Tom, but I've seen it said elsewhere that figure flying is passe or vacant flying. I think it was david equizzy(SP) that opened with a sharp dimond loop starting and ending with tip stands that was a beauty.
 
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Yan
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Re: VF 17 Videos and discussion

Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:54 pm

tpatters wrote:
The only complaint that I've ever heard was around out of frame flying. I've called for it before - if we are going to have a rule about it, then it needs be specific or just this sort of thing will continue to happen. Right now we have something like - "We'll out of frame is kinda-sorta ok and must really be egregious in order for a video to be rejected, but we will not in any way define what egregious means. Just submit the entry and we will let you know". It's no wonder folks get bent out of shape over it - if it is a rule, it should be clearly defined or just removed all together.


I've been thinking about this alot since I read the post this morning.
From my own perspective the out of frame thing is difficult and a clear policy would be helpful. I think the most important thing is that 'it is clear that the kite left the frame and returned in to frame during the same piece of filming' i.e. not edited. I can't think of a way to define 'egregious' at the moment, and would be keen to here how other people would describe it?
 
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Zippy8
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Re: VF 17 Videos and discussion

Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:44 pm

I can't think of a way to define 'egregious' at the moment, and would be keen to here how other people would describe it?

Google helpfully offers:-

e·gre·gious
1. Outstandingly bad; shocking.
2. Remarkably good.

Thanks Google :?

From my own perspective the out of frame thing is difficult and a clear policy would be helpful.

If you insist on a set-in-stone rule then there are two choices:-
1) out of frame = DQ. It's been like this before.
2) anything goes.

The third option, a specified amount of time out of frame or number of out of frame events, almost certainly dumps a shedload more work on the poor sod trying to run the round and will probably lead to arguments anyway. I wouldn't run an event if this was the way it was expected to be dealt with. I've got better things to do with my time.

Option 1 is a royal pain in that it's difficult enough to get a VF video done without a little slip up rendering it inadmissible. I know that pain.
Option 2 makes scoring far more tricky, I would suggest. I can also imagine a fair amount of disgust if a piss take entry ends up winning a nice prize and we'll be right back here.

In all honesty I did think that the way I was doing things - a few suggestions and a "you know it when you see it" approach - was working and fit into the less formal nature of Virtual Freestyle. Perhaps I was wrong in this assumption.

I think the most important thing is that 'it is clear that the kite left the frame and returned in to frame during the same piece of filming' i.e. not edited.

That's certainly one major reason.

Mike.
 
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ObijuanKenobe
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Re: VF 17 Videos and discussion

Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:59 pm

Zippy8 wrote:
In all honesty I did think that the way I was doing things - a few suggestions and a "you know it when you see it" approach - was working and fit into the less formal nature of Virtual Freestyle.

Mike.


=D> =D> =D> =D>

I'll give that a hearty AMEN.

obi
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"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return." L daVinci
 
kalle
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Re: VF 17 Videos and discussion

Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:19 pm

Actually I decided really late to take part at VF17 and had about 20 minutes to capture some flying. Having poor experiences with my tripod I didn`t know a good angle.
I`ve tried again over the weekend and found good angles. Considering the nice prizes each round, I think everyone who take part should be able to invest some time to find out the best perspective to prevent flying out-of-frame. I did not this time and I wouldn`t have wondered if my entry was rejected.

In my opinion a set-in-stone-rule would end up those discussions and it is definately possible to get thing going properly, even with a tripod.
 
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bryan beasley
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Re: VF 17 Videos and discussion

Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:47 pm

Nice debate all, well done.

FWIW, The only rule change that has made any significant difference for me, was the extension from 60 to 90 seconds, which essentially made every other aspect of taking part just a touch harder.
I like the rules as they are - allthough there were a few 'bends'of the 20MB limit this time around - the 'Out of Frame' moments mostly went unnoticed from this end. There is allways the option to downgrade your score allocation if you object to anything you see... Common sense seems to have served us pretty well thus far. (allthough the older I get, the less common 'sense' seems to be - 'kin rare these days!)
As far as allocating 'Flow' (Artistic) scores go... the other thread I know, the quality of video production / music / background choice etc. etc. bear absolutley no relevance on the scores given what-so-ever. (Unless Lara doesn't like the track ;-) ) 'tis, and should be based purely on what is flown. Of course if someone choreogrpahs a piece to 90 seconds of music and submits that, there maybe a different case to argue. I'm not sure that's 'freestyle' though.

YMMV.

Bryan
 
tpatters
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Re: VF 17 Videos and discussion

Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:01 pm

What not put it to a survey vote?

Personally, I think this exact issue has caused enough trouble that it should be properly tightened up.

I think a reasonable constraint is that you get:
exactly 1 out of frame (where the kite fully exits the frame) lasting no more than 3 seconds.
 
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Sub
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Re: VF 17 Videos and discussion

Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:10 pm

Just to add my 2p - why are the videos presented with the persons real name, but on the forum everyone uses nicknames. On the score sheet it's a mix of nicknames and names. It's terribly confusing, I still don't know who half the people are who entered, some of them aren't even members of FA.

I realise entrants come from all over the world, are members of other forums etc.. but it would be nice if there was a central place for us all too discuss VF matters.
 
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Yan
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Re: VF 17 Videos and discussion

Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:20 pm

Hmmmm, I'm still unsure, no out of frame at all will probably discourage the less able (people like me) flyers who are dependant on a tripod.
Anything goes may result in some untidy entry's and a frustrating experience of scoring. My favoured rule would be "Infrequent, brief (less than one second) episodes are acceptable provided it is clear that no editing has been done"

The main reason I want to keep it a little vague is that I don't want to discourage new flyers after all VF is a chance to show case your skills, whether that skill is a single half axel, or 90 seconds of full on freestyle.
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