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bryan beasley
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Re: VF16 - results

Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:20 pm

kalle wrote:
Thanks for voting me on the first place, I really enjoyed this VF-edition. I also apologize for using an easy kite!


's no easier than any other kite, and you flew it well - well done. No need to apologise. The technical difficulty of what you did on that kite didn't deserve the 1st place however IMVHO. The quality of the footage, and your style were right up there though. Nice work.

I have re-watched the top 5 and started to break 'em down a bit, taking into account the kite used and how well suited each kite actually is to the moves demonstrated. My conclusion is that the judging of 'Freestyle' competition is beyond me to comprehend, i'm Fooked - and still ain't got a mug.

Technical scores vs style scores Mike?

Bryan
 
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ObijuanKenobe
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Re: VF16 - results

Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:19 pm

No offense meant for the SIN comment!!

I only meant to point out that the taz machine has been (in past rounds) the trick that most separated the men from the boys. However, because it is so easy to learn on the SIN, and so forgiving on the SIN, it's hard to give that trick 'ultimate' status anymore. I did the same thing when seeing Piero fly the Cosmic, but he was flying taz cascades (hard on every kite) and crazy copters as well.

To put this into personal perspective, I cannot do a taz machine on my XTs yet, while I could do them very well on the Sea Devils, nirvana, and others. When I flew the SIN, I was doing them at will literally. So there is a difference. In fact, I haven't done a successful taz machine since I last flew the SIN!! But I am enjoying exploring the XTs so much, I just don't care much at the moment.

The further trouble with the SIN is that it has comparatively few 'weak' tricks, like the flic flac on the Cosmic for example (which Piero also does easily). It's just a great trick kite. So while I gave you high marks, I personally was most impressed with Bryan on the Element...given the obvious wind conditions, trick list, etc. You don't see ladoles and crazy copters in many VF videos. And, as I mentioned, Dave's DS video blew me away...what flow progress!!!!

All the same, the majority declared you the winner without doubt, and I don't dispute that at all! Congratulations! Don't make this a one appearance wonder...make sure you fly next round!! I'll try to add tricks to my routine next round as well. :) But I have always been a 'different' flyer than you freestylers. I just want a f'ing mug.

obi
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Daves1980
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Re: VF16 - results

Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:07 pm

Yan wrote:
=D> =D> =D> Good round, congratulations to the winners, Krijn and the mug winners.


Most memorable moment for me was Davide's rolling cascade with the double lazys 8)


Thank you very much Yan!:)
 
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Re: VF16 - results

Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:19 am

Good discussion on technical vs flow.

I think flow is easier to judge - is it pleasing or not in a fluid way and does the entire flight hang together well, to the music, etc. I think think technical is harder - is it based on the difficulty of the tricks, how clean/sharp they look, whether the kite seems under control at all times, etc. I can see it being any and all of these.

The kite is also part of the equation. I don't think that someone should be marked down/not marked up because of the specific kite they are flying whether it's a Sin or whatever. Or, for that matter, being marked up because a trick is harder on a specific kite only for that reason. The competitor needs to choose whatever tool they work with best.
But thats just my opinion - each judge gets to decide how to rate the other flyers efforts for themselves.


-Tom
 
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Zippy8
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Re: VF16 - results

Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:05 am

bryan beasley wrote:
Technical scores vs style scores Mike?

Technical - normalised scores.
David Rüger            100
Davide Equizzi          95
Dave Hearn              94

Bryan Beasley           90
Alexander Belov         84
Tom Patterson           74
Krijn Hemminga          73

Shannon Winterdaze      70
Gerardo Fisanotti       66

Mike Fogg               63

Gabriel Barrionuevo     59
Ianto Spooner           58
Obijuan Kenobe          50


Style - normalised scores
David Rüger            100
Dave Hearn              94
Davide Equizzi          89

Bryan Beasley           80
Alexander Belov         76
Tom Patterson           76
Krijn Hemminga          73

Gerardo Fisanotti       73
Shannon Winterdaze      69

Mike Fogg               68

Obijuan Kenobe          64
Gabriel Barrionuevo     58
Ianto Spooner           53


So what do I read into this ? David Rüger was top scored overall by most people and topped both Style and Technical. It was a pretty clear win - not a landslide by any means but a decent gap.

Dave Hearn eased past Davide Equizzi on the basis of a higher Style score for second place. Places 4th to 7th were in order then Gerardo and Shannon got almost identical overall results from different combinations. Obi was considered to be far better in the Style department than Technical and, considering the entry, that makes a lot of sense to me.

In the past I've read people claiming that the VF winner was just the one that did the most tricks - that was rubbish. I think that one thing I've seen is that a winning routine, a top scoring routine, can't avoid looking planned and controlled - having good Style. I think it needs the real off the hook tricks a lot less.

The name is, after all, Virtual Freestyle and not Virtual Freetech :P

Mike.
 
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Re: VF16 - results

Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:10 am

tpatters wrote:
I think think technical is harder - is it based on the difficulty of the tricks, how clean/sharp they look, whether the kite seems under control at all times, etc. I can see it being any and all of these.


Well I have flown in more than one TP and 'shadow' judged TPs in Holland (not many, and not often, but I know how to score a routine well enough), and I don't think of this as anything like that. Yeah, I look at how well tricks are done to the book, but often the book trick is not the best variation that fits into the flow of that moment. I guess I am the wacky VF participant, but I want to be pleased and impressed by control of the kite, with tricks being ONE way of demonstrating that. I get tired of seeing sloppy trick after trick with erratic flying in between being identified as 'freestyle'. That's skipping a big part of the fine art of flying and far from style.

And nope, I do not think that the 1st place video was an example of the latter. I thought his control was top notch. I just removed the taz machine as the trump trick this round and then things got alot harder to call for me.

obi
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Zippy8
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Re: VF16 - results

Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:59 pm

ObijuanKenobe wrote:
Well I have flown in more than one TP and 'shadow' judged TPs in Holland (not many, and not often, but I know how to score a routine well enough)

Hmmm.....

I am not at all sure that trying to apply a Tricks Party judging mentality to VF is the way to go. TP is defined in incredible detail - very much "you shall..." O:) . VF is entirely loose - much more "do what thou wilt...." :twisted:

In all fairness, if 9 out of 12 people scoring agree on the best routine then the other 3 (I re-re-checked) might just have to come to terms with the possibility that they aren't quite as right as they may wish to believe (was that diplomatic enough ? :wink: ) But looking at the scores in detail I really don't see anyone scoring waaaay off what the overall consensus turned out to be. Indeed discarding the high and low marks for each scored part leads to one change of places - a swapping of 7th and 8th.

An individual might disagree with the overall result but, unfortunately for them, this is not borne out by the numbers. It just isn't.

Mike.
 
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bryan beasley
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Re: VF16 - results

Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:21 pm

Zippy8 wrote:
bryan beasley wrote:
Technical scores vs style scores Mike?

Technical - normalised scores.
David Rüger            100
Davide Equizzi          95
Dave Hearn              94

Bryan Beasley           90
Alexander Belov         84
Tom Patterson           74
Krijn Hemminga          73

Shannon Winterdaze      70
Gerardo Fisanotti       66

Mike Fogg               63

Gabriel Barrionuevo     59
Ianto Spooner           58
Obijuan Kenobe          50


Style - normalised scores
David Rüger            100
Dave Hearn              94
Davide Equizzi          89

Bryan Beasley           80
Alexander Belov         76
Tom Patterson           76
Krijn Hemminga          73

Gerardo Fisanotti       73
Shannon Winterdaze      69

Mike Fogg               68

Obijuan Kenobe          64
Gabriel Barrionuevo     58
Ianto Spooner           53




Thanks for that Mike. 's interesting. 's also interesting comparing the differences between what fliers think is good / bad or indifferent. Ultimately useless, but interesting none-the-less.

Bryan
 
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Re: VF16 - results

Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:45 pm

Zippy8 wrote:
ObijuanKenobe wrote:
Well I have flown in more than one TP and 'shadow' judged TPs in Holland (not many, and not often, but I know how to score a routine well enough)


Hmmm.....

I am not at all sure that trying to apply a Tricks Party judging mentality to VF is the way to go.

Mike.


Reread my post, fella. I said right after the quoted sentence that I don't think of VF in this way at all. I'll forgive you this once.

Really, I think in a pure TP mindset, the SIN video wins hands down. In TP, you aren't allowed to judge based on what you know a kite can do, but how the planned trick is executed. So a well-executed taz machine (which was on your trick list, of course) on any kite is a group 5 point bomb dropped on all your competitors. I have seen this be the deciding factor in several TPs where the Cosmic fliers just have an outright advantage because it isn't that risky to fly with it on your list twice: If you hit it even once, it's worth several other lower group tricks done perfectly.

Because I don't think of it in a pure TP way, I came to slightly different numbers than the others. We are talking the different between 8's and 9's here, not 9's and 4's.

Just my further 2 cents.

obi
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kalle
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Re: VF16 - results

Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:58 pm

From my point of view, I can tell you what I like and what not. I did not fly too many competitions yet, but those I flew were Tricksparty-Events. My style focusses on clean and controlled flying and tricking. That`s why I always (in the two vf-editions I took part so far) voted Davide on my first place technical wise. Even if he doesn`t pull out La Dole`s, Yofades and Crazy-Copters, his execution of the tricks is top notch =D>

On the other hand, I really dislike the Deep Space, it always looks like out of control (maybe it`s the concept of the kite? don`t know!). But what Dave Hearn does with it this time had such a flow, that`s why I voted him on top flow-wise. By the way, Bryan Beasley was my third place with a great plus for pulling of all the class-5 tricks but with not so much flow as Dave or so much perfection as Davide.

I always guessed my style isn`t so much vf-ish, but taking Piero Serra`s record and Martin Madsens high placings in account, clean flying seems to be more recognized than just pulling of the latest tricks.

At the end of the day, I am really happy about Obi`s comment on my control because I am always trying to control the kite as good as I can! :-D
 
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Re: VF16 - results

Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:36 pm

bryan beasley wrote:
Ultimately useless, but interesting none-the-less.

Now that's an obituary !! :-D

Mike.
 
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bryan beasley
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Re: VF16 - results

Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:29 pm

LOL, yeah, I told you I was ill.

One more input before I rest in peace this round...

I've checked back a few years - in the interest of ermmm, interesting stuff - and in pretty much all of my entries, I've passed over a clip containing 'cleaner' flying in order to include a key move or 2. Of course, the ideal would be to have killer moves nailed on with clean entry, exit and flow throughout... Bring on next round Jay. ;-)

Oh, Taz Machine is TP group 4 btw, CC's, Yo-Fade, Multi-slot, BS Cascade, Yo-Yo multi Lazy and Ladole are all group 5 though.

Trick competitions and Freestyle competitons - clearly different monsties.

Well done all, some great stuff this round from a good number of fliers and thanks for the hard work Mike. Appreciated.

Out.

Bryan
 
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krijn
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Re: VF16 - results

Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:20 pm

the area51 has landed
it is in a very good condition


i'll make a movie the coming week/month/year


Krijn