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Re: COmpetition, what's wrong with it

Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:35 pm

Sub wrote:
I've been flying in my local area for coming up to two years and STILL I'm the only one here that flies a dual line trick kite. If there was someone to compete with... well... mmm...


Keithgrif wrote:
VF is clearly working, why?

It's not a kite flying competition, it's become a glorified raffle... :evil:


Compete with yourself.

Think about how you might approach a competition. If you don't have a lot of tricks down then make up something in your head that is a little more laid-back and artistic, utilising what you know when it comes to throwing a trick in.

I've seen the best do this in competitions.

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Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:43 am

Competitive flying has really dropped off in the US. I stood by on the sidelines and had no desire to compete for years, but finally deciding to compete was one of the best things I ever did to improve my skills (this term is being used loosely). I think the only reason I entered into competition was because there was a novice Tricks Party competition that a friend was pulling together and encouraging me to compete in (Thanks Dave). Now Tricks Party has folded in the US and I have switched over to Virtual Freestyle. An entirely different set of skills that I am still working to improve.

At the end of the day the competitions are a great way to meet others, have a good time :drinking: , and learn a bit. I wish I had tried it sooner. The novice competition proved much less intimidating and might be the best way to get folks to compete. Once they do, they might figure out that we really aren't that mean to compete with and the score doesn't really matter.

My 2 cents.

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Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:46 am

Zippy8 wrote:
Part of this is that the natural progression of kite flying doesn't necessarily lead to competing. I don't imagine many beginners are starting out with dreams of one day, maybe, getting to STACK EuroCup.
Mike.

May I expand on that?
A couple of summers back a chap I met at the beach let me have a go with his Fury.
As I remember it he used to fly pairs with the wife in competitions,but I did not ask him how he got into it this but let's say he started watching others at some sort of gathering of kiters.

I would suggest that a fair few of the people who started kiting say a decade ago, only really knew kiting through regular face-to-face interaction with others particulary at organized events.

By contrast I,relatively new to the 'sport', discovering I liked to play with kites at the beach, discovered more from downloading the likes of Andy Wardley's "Stoked in the Park" vids and others.

Perhaps,then,I am typical of a new generation of converts who discovered kiting from far flung corners of the country via the internet (and meeting other solo recreational flyers "at the beach") and who's inspiration is thus the solo freestylist.
 
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Re: COmpetition, what's wrong with it

Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:39 pm

Keithgrif wrote:
Dangerous to ask I know, but what is wrong with the current format of competitions for sports kites? There must be something as the number of competitors is dropping and the uptake by newer fliers is extremely low.


I think the answer is simple. To be crowned national champion is not as prestigious as it used to be.

Fewer competitors mean the value of winning is less.

If the "return" is less then people will not want to put "in" as much.

If people put in less, the value and quality of the competition is less..

.. and so it all goes down a big black hole.

In the UK, my suggestions would be...

Drop quad line competitions
Just have competitions on Saturdays with Sundays reserved for bad conditions only.
Only have three rounds.

This sounds drastic.. but I think you have to get some momentum back.
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Re: COmpetition, what's wrong with it

Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:21 am

mobius wrote:
[
Just have competitions on Saturdays with Sundays reserved for bad conditions only.
Only have three rounds.


I think Dave's right on the money!!, it's the all weekend thing that stops me doing stack, don't mind more rounds than three though.
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Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:29 am

I agree with what Dave says.

Of us who do fly high end kites, I think I would be right in saying that over the last 10/15 years the ratio is much more towards trick flying. I think that most of us fly alone, and trick flying is more interesting as a solitary pastime compared to drawing boring circles. It's also a more interesting activity with partners but that is besides the point. 8)

Anyway, compared to precision / team, trick flying demands a more specific wind range for it to be enjoyable. So going to a competition is more of a gamble. Where precision people can do justice to their ballet routine in anywhere from 3mph to 25mph, I for one can only do justice to trick flying in 3mph to 10mph. I just don't enjoy it above that. Which means, even if the fickle forecast says "perfect wind" on the morning of a competition, I won't travel if it is further than 2 hours drive away.

So umm yes my theory is that less people fly competitions because more people fly tricks.

VF works because you don't have to travel anywhere, you can wait for that rare good wind day (and you get a chance of winning something). OK I'd prefer to win national standings points more than a kite (personally), but not if it is a gamble.

Besides, trick flying is a bit of a "soul" sport... although we all like a get together and a fly and see whether Piero can beat Chris and who can do comete/taz cascade, but on the whole I don't think many people are bothered at the end of the day.
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Re: Competition, what's wrong with it

Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:14 am

mobius wrote:
I think the answer is simple.....

You had me at "drop quad line competitions" :P

Mike.
 
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Re: Competition, what's wrong with it

Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:39 am

Zippy8 wrote:
mobius wrote:
I think the answer is simple.....

You had me at "drop quad line competitions" :P

Mike.


So drop the only format where we have had novices step up for the last 2 years, seems against the point I was trying to make :-(

I never said I was talking IRB (traditional STACK) competitions, I was talking generally, in fact I specifically mentioned VF earlier. TP-UK competitions have all been held this year with novice and experienced each on one day within the timetable of the rest of the STACK competition, anyone could have come along for a couple of hours and competed in tricks.
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Re: Competition, what's wrong with it

Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:49 am

Keithgrif wrote:
So drop the only format where we have had novices step up for the last 2 years, seems against the point I was trying to make :-(

You have your agenda, I have mine. :-)

I never said I was talking IRB (traditional STACK) competitions, I was talking generally, in fact I specifically mentioned VF earlier.

From my short experience with VF all I've done is keep on about it in as many places as possible and offer goodies for taking part. I'm sure that there are people who have entered who'd like to fiddle with the format and I've had disagreements with people over this. This is for them to deal with however.

VF isn't just a competition though.

Mike.
 
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Re: COmpetition, what's wrong with it

Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:05 pm

mobius wrote:
In the UK, my suggestions would be...

Just have competitions on Saturdays with Sundays reserved for bad conditions only.


This goes against the voting by STACK members last AGM, I also think it may discourage novices, it certainly discourages me even now.

I could be wrong though, I often am. Are there any potential IRB novices out there who would commit to competing if the novice competition was held all on one day of the weekend?
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Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:09 pm

Just discussing this with Caron...

I said the 1 day/ 2 day divide was a real problem. There will always be those who prefer just 1 day, just as there who wouldn't bother if it wasn't 2 days. And at first sight that appears divisive and irreconcilable. But Caron suggested that if say, over the course of 4 competitions, ballet was held on 2 saturdays ad 2 Sundays and precision was the other way around, then anyone who could/would only want to compete on 1 day could still knock up 2 rounds of each discipline and at least give themselves a chance of picking up a full set of qualifying scores.

It's not perfect, I know, but suddenly the divide seems less irreconcilable.
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Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:24 pm

Don't quite get what's new about that Steve, I schedule the ballet and precision disciplines on alternate days of the weekend every time anyway. I haven't checked if I do two Saturdays for (for example) DIP and two for DIB but it wouldn't be a stretch to do this now. Perhaps the point is that we (I) haven't made it clear that precision and ballet can be treated separately over a weekend.
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Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:28 pm

The other discussion we had was around the fun element of the events. I remember not so long ago water-fights around the arena and all sorts of not-so-serious shenanigans. These days it all seems to be about getting through the schedule. Now that might just be because the weather these last couple of years has been rubbish. Or because the festivals pressure us to use the arena in a certain time frame. But it could also be something to do with the culture of STACK. And I'd be interested to see if others think that is a debate worth having.

FWIW, I suspect the success of VF has more to do with it's culture than anything else.
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Steve
 
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Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:30 pm

That's exactly right, Keith - it may be as much about the presentation and perception as about the actuality.
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Steve
 
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Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:43 pm

Next question... is TP successful?

I think the people who take part would say so. Or at least they enjoy it. But on the other hand the competitors (correct me if I'm wrong) are almost all from the assembled crowd of STACK competitors for the itinerant IRB competition. If that's true we need to find a way to raise the value of TP to the point where people want to compete in TP weather or not they fly IRB.
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