Sport, Trick and Freestyle Kite Flying Forum

Moderators: Craig, Davey, SpOoC

 
User avatar
Old Greebo
Topic Author
Posts: 236
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:55 pm
Location: The wettest middle of wet, wet Wales

Icarex? Nylon? Ripstop Polyester?

Fri Aug 05, 2011 6:07 pm

I was looking at the Albatross range. In particular their quads, and in particular particular the 2.8-metre ones with four vertical spreaders.
They do have one model that specifies Icarex PC31 as the sail fabric. It costs £98 (at today's exchange rate).
But it isn't very pretty. The pretty ones (and I do crave a pretty kite) cost only £84. The pretty sails are said to be 'nylon'.

I read (on the tufflight.com website) that "Icarex" is a trade name, and technically it's not now being produced, but (they say) kite flyers still tend to refer to ripstop polyester as "Icarex".

How much worse do 'nylon' sails perform than Icarex (or ripstop polyester) sails? Are they less durable? More air-permeable? Do they stretch and go out of shape so much that they become unflyable? Is this a good reason for a someone like me, who wants quality (but let's face it, will never be a top flyer) to eschew the £84 Chinese kites?
Brian. (Past it, but reaching back!)
Silver Fox 2.5; HQ Shadow SUL; Rev 1.5 SLE; Spiderkites URO; Etc...
 
User avatar
Flying Fish
Posts: 997
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:01 am
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Icarex? Nylon? Ripstop Polyester?

Fri Aug 05, 2011 6:16 pm

I've got my eye on one of their 2.8m quads as well ... Out of curiosity, which one do you consider pretty and which one not? By far my favourite is this one:

Image
 
User avatar
Old Greebo
Topic Author
Posts: 236
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:55 pm
Location: The wettest middle of wet, wet Wales

Re: Icarex? Nylon? Ripstop Polyester?

Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:21 pm

That's the one I like too, Dromel.
The red/black/yellow one is fairly pretty, but I'm definitely not a fan of the pink/blue/yellow one (which is the only one they claim as Icarex).
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Brian. (Past it, but reaching back!)
Silver Fox 2.5; HQ Shadow SUL; Rev 1.5 SLE; Spiderkites URO; Etc...
 
User avatar
Zippy8
Posts: 5954
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:43 pm
Location: Vihtavuori, Finland
Contact:

Re: Icarex? Nylon? Ripstop Polyester?

Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:40 pm

Old Greebo wrote:
I read (on the tufflight.com website) that "Icarex" is a trade name

It is, owned by Teijin.

and technically it's not now being produced

Japan has had some more pressing issues to address recently but there's plenty still out there to be had.

but (they say) kite flyers still tend to refer to ripstop polyester as "Icarex".

That would be foolish. There are plenty of other polyester cloths - Ventex, Chikara, fr'instance. Genuine, proper Icarex guarantees quality cloth; "ripstop polyester" could be thin tent fabric.

How much worse do 'nylon' sails perform than Icarex (or ripstop polyester) sails?

In broad terms nylon:-
  • is heavier
  • has more stretch in use and can be permanently stretched
  • absorbs of water
  • is cheaper
  • has colours that don't last as long

What this means to the kite is, again broadly, a less responsive sail. This can be a good thing in a heavy winds kite but isn't generally A Good Idea™. A clever kitemaker can adjust the sail panels to account for the stretch of nylon to form an efficient aerofoil. This is irrelevant to the barndoor qualities of most quads.

Mike.
 
User avatar
Flying Fish
Posts: 997
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:01 am
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Icarex? Nylon? Ripstop Polyester?

Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:40 pm

OK, we agree, Old Greebo, I'm not keen on the pink-blue-yellow one either.

I'm not 100% sure whether the grey-looking panels on the yellow-white-black one we both like are transparent mylar or mesh, i.e. whether it's a vented quad. Do you know?
 
User avatar
Jezza
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:19 pm
Location: Cambs

Re: Icarex? Nylon? Ripstop Polyester?

Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:00 pm

I actually think the pink one in the light of day looks more purple, in the sky it may look a little more pink but not much, this is my 'icarex' version:

Image


As a kite its not bad, although it looks like a blast it has a few reasons why its not. Its heavier and it has mesh between LE and sail where is a Rev Blast has solid ripstop material. It is a fun kite, very strong and quite heavy with the SLE but great on a windy day. It makes a noise like a V1 bomb as its flying through the air, it doesnt turn or trick like a 1.5 but it is fairly quick and in good wind can have quite a pull.
I actually prefer using the original Alba handles with this as they're longer than Revs and give more of a response.

I would absolutely recommend the Revolution Blast if you're after a Revolution Blast lol, I dont think you can get one on a budget. However if you want something to scare yourself a bit with its noise,speed and pull then its not bad at that.
Clearly, I'm part of the problem.
 
User avatar
Zippy8
Posts: 5954
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:43 pm
Location: Vihtavuori, Finland
Contact:

Re: Icarex? Nylon? Ripstop Polyester?

Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:04 pm

Dromel wrote:
I'm not 100% sure whether the grey-looking panels on the yellow-white-black one we both like are transparent mylar or mesh, i.e. whether it's a vented quad. Do you know?

If it's the copy of the actual Revolution Blast that it looks like then those are solid panels, Mylar or whatnot.

Far be it from me to side with Revolution in any matter (I have a reputation to consider :wink: ) but you really are coming very close to straightforward counterfeiting here and in a lot of cases raised recently. Albatross' design input into the kite is close to fuck all and it's just a cheap copy, with all the negative connotations that implies. If they had applied some innovation to the shape, bridle, details, then perhaps but just lifting everything wholesale and banging it out cheap...... :-|

There is a line, gentlemen, is there not ?

Mike.
 
User avatar
mnkby
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 5:09 am
Contact:

Re: Icarex? Nylon? Ripstop Polyester?

Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:30 pm

Jezza wrote:
...it has mesh between LE and sail where is a Rev Blast has solid ripstop material.


Well, actually, it's mylar on a "genuine" Revolution Blast and it was used in the kite for a very specific purpose where it was felt that using the typical venting material would have made for a weak LE connection, considering how much more the kite can pull and flex. This was determined in the "R&D" (something Albatross really isn't familiar with to be fair...) process. Zippy8 manages to hit the nail right on the head with his observations.
David Hathaway, Revolutionary
-~ http://www.iquad.ca
 
User avatar
Flying Fish
Posts: 997
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:01 am
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Icarex? Nylon? Ripstop Polyester?

Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:43 pm

If they had applied some innovation to the shape, bridle, details, then perhaps


Are we talking about the same kite? I'm not talking about the strip between sail and LE, I'm talking about the 4 elongated roughly triangular panels which appear to be transparent on several of the pictures of this kite (grey on the picture I posted). Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall seeing these kinds of panels ever on a Blast, and certainly not if they're mesh.
 
sstrangey
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:44 pm
Location: suffolk

Re: Icarex? Nylon? Ripstop Polyester?

Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:52 pm

i have the black and yellow 2.8 kite although mine is marketed as a max airex 111 and the clear panels you asked about are mesh making this very simular to a revolution blast but vented
revolution jb blast shockwave power blast 24 spacekitestaurus taureo eliott stigma sport 3m jetstream speed mystic hq observer devil wing 1.7 spiderkites lycos 2.5 atrax .65 1.6 2.2 and highar colours in motion speedster .powerhawk benson deep space
 
User avatar
Flying Fish
Posts: 997
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:01 am
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Icarex? Nylon? Ripstop Polyester?

Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:55 pm

Ah, thanks, so we do have some innovation here!
 
User avatar
HiFly
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:44 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Icarex? Nylon? Ripstop Polyester?

Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:57 pm

Zippy8 wrote:
There are plenty of other polyester cloths - Ventex, Chikara, fr'instance.

afaik chikara is (one of the best) nylon
Mike
Image
 
sailor99
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:51 pm

Re: Icarex? Nylon? Ripstop Polyester?

Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:00 pm

ISTBC but I think they're talking about the picture jezza posted.

Interestingly icarex to me just means an 90s spinnaker cloth the appeared and disappeared in no time because it lacked the quality, integrity and longevity needed for sailing. funny how perceptions are so radically different! My cloths of choice are the really top notch 0.5 and 0.75 oz modern spinny cloths. Most of these are what sail makers call poly and kite makers call nylon! In reality cloths like challenger are now mixed fibres.
 
User avatar
mnkby
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 5:09 am
Contact:

Re: Icarex? Nylon? Ripstop Polyester?

Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:26 pm

Dromel wrote:
Ah, thanks, so we do have some innovation here!


That's pretty damn innovative. I'm surprised nobody has ever thought of venting a quad line kite before Albatross.
David Hathaway, Revolutionary
-~ http://www.iquad.ca
 
User avatar
Zippy8
Posts: 5954
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:43 pm
Location: Vihtavuori, Finland
Contact:

Re: Icarex? Nylon? Ripstop Polyester?

Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:48 pm

HiFly wrote:
Zippy8 wrote:
There are plenty of other polyester cloths - Ventex, Chikara, fr'instance.

afaik chikara is (one of the best) nylon

You're completely right and I did know this :oops: I blame nightshift. :wink:

Mike.