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Old Greebo
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Re: W-Shaped 4 Line Kites (Non Rev)

Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:13 am

I wish KoK was a bit more up-front about his prices. I always reckon if you have to go to the trouble of asking what the price is, you can't afford it.
Brian. (Past it, but reaching back!)
Silver Fox 2.5; HQ Shadow SUL; Rev 1.5 SLE; Spiderkites URO; Etc...
 
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Jezza
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Re: W-Shaped 4 Line Kites (Non Rev)

Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:47 am

I'd probably go straight to source Greebo, you might be better off contacting Albatross.
I just wonder how difficult home building that sail would be. Probably quite tricky, have seen some great designs though like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZhgpSDV4ek

I also found a Pink floyd W kite vid which I suspect people will know because it was filmed in the UK. Looked stunning.

I just wish the Americans would let someone loose with the actual sail designs. Let em go mad, snap that ruler in half and get some children in with crayons + giant spirographs :)
Clearly, I'm part of the problem.
 
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mnkby
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Re: W-Shaped 4 Line Kites (Non Rev)

Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:58 am

Jezza wrote:
I just wish the Americans would let someone loose with the actual sail designs. Let em go mad, snap that ruler in half and get some children in with crayons + giant spirographs :)


Revolution call this the Masterpiece series, where Bazzer, Gibian and others have done some great designs.

Bear in mind, the B/Zen/B2 series panels are done that way on purpose, it wasn't simple a case of "lets try and make a cool sail", more an example of "let's do some R&D and try and make this thing fly better", something I have yet to see out of any of the Chinese companies.
David Hathaway, Revolutionary
-~ http://www.iquad.ca
 
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hezz
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Re: W-Shaped 4 Line Kites (Non Rev)

Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:20 am

Rev have "let someone loose" with the sail designs. Los Hermanos can make you a sail to whatever design you want - a printed sail. Limited only by your imagination... design away... :-)

Hezz
 
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Jezza
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Re: W-Shaped 4 Line Kites (Non Rev)

Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:13 pm

I actually like your arugments mnkby, you're one of the Revaliban who give a sensible and measured account. You should give some lessons :)

For me this is about cost vs design vs performance. I can get an £80 (2011) Icarex sailed Albatross which flys very very well. Infact as a non pro flyer I can hardly tell the difference. I dont need the amazing sails or the £500 for a good looking kite which isnt a print.

If KoK stopped requiring those funky designs you can bet your booty that if enough people requested them Albatross would just add them to the public catalogue. They may even do that anyways. So again I'm going to get a great design and a kite which flys almost as good (to me the same) as my Rev 'B' for 1/3rd of the price.
I'm on a budget and price rules my world.

I think people assume I'm a rev hater, I own their product, it is a very nice package but to me, personally its not worth the money. If it is worth it to other people then I'm truely glad for them. Unlike Revolution I'm not going to sit here and call people names for the choices they make or force my opinion on people.
People defend what they believe in just as JB did a few days ago, I dont really believe in anything except how much money I have/havent got. So that is what I defend.

So, Revolution, go hire one of the 14 trillion chinese kite makers to make you a bargain basement quad with new deisgns, stick your name on it and charge us a reasonable price. you'll make money out of us tight arses who just own the 1 or 2 revs and only buy new ones when the old ones are worn out and carry on selling your 'premium' kites to everyone else.

Everyone is happy and you can bin those Exp's with the most gash looking sail in the history of sails :badgrin:
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Harrier
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Re: W-Shaped 4 Line Kites (Non Rev)

Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:57 pm

“…….more an example of "let's do some R&D and try and make this thing fly better", something I have yet to see out of any of the Chinese companies.”

David (mnkby) being as you are associated with the Rev company and appear to be biased against the Chinese kites also over time seem unlikely to have either bought or even flown that many, are you best placed to see or comment fairly on R&D of all the numerous Chinese W shaped kites?

Over the last couple of years we have seen several factory modifications and improvements to the Chinese kites bought by local flyers and are very happy with both performance and quality, we do have plenty of other far more expensive W shaped kites to compare with.
Not being hampered by an inefficient and expensive supply network etc folk in the UK only have to pay around 70 quid for non copy kites delivered in just a few days , something Rev are finding difficult to compete with.

And just to clarify David, what exactly are you claiming as being copied from the 1.5 sized Rev kite that might be an infringement of UK IP law is it the W shape, the design, or something else?

Hezz, perhaps you could let us know how we might find “Los Hermanos”, they seem hard to locate.

Jezza, are those sails actually made of Icarex? Albatross were showing lots of sails as made from Icarex and then quickly changed the description of near all of them to Nylon(y) PU40.
There are some of the Blue 2011’s about here and the nylon fabric does look similar to Icarex.

All the comment on both here and the Rev forum have certainly help raise the profile of the various Chinese kites and suppliers, I wonder who best benefits from that. :P
 
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Jezza
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Re: W-Shaped 4 Line Kites (Non Rev)

Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:11 pm

Harrier, If you look on Alba's online wholesale shop u will see a newer model listed as:


Brand Name:
Albatross
Model Number:
QU24012
Material:
icarex pc31
color:
red yellow and black
US $141.54 - 151.99


They actually do it in blue/red/black too but isn't on the site, this model I think is the most expensive of the 'W' kites. While one cannot be certain, I have a 1.5B and the material feels identical in that model to the china, It also flys very similar to it imho. I also have a m8 who has the earlier white/red/black tribal which does not feel the same to touch nor to fly. It flys very very well as they all do but just feels a little different. Based on that and the price I'm kinda guessing it is their premier model and does have Icarex(or similar) I might be wrong though. Just a shame they only make it in 2 colours and don't make a vent version.

However I flew my vent for the first time in real anger instead of lightish winds I have flown it in before:

Image

Totally amazed by it, flew like an absolute dream despite 30mph gusts. It is also (so i've been told) the latest Alba model, I believe them too because it contains a couple of things I've not seen on one before. Only little things, but I noticed them.

Best £65 quid (without lines) that I've ever spent.
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hezz
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Re: W-Shaped 4 Line Kites (Non Rev)

Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:13 am

 
Harrier
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Re: W-Shaped 4 Line Kites (Non Rev)

Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:22 am

hezz wrote:



Hmmm....
http://www.esste.com/

I don't do Facebook, so the google link is not much use, still not found them.
 
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mnkby
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Re: W-Shaped 4 Line Kites (Non Rev)

Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:29 pm

Harrier wrote:
David (mnkby) being as you are associated with the Rev company and appear to be biased against the Chinese kites also over time seem unlikely to have either bought or even flown that many, are you best placed to see or comment fairly on R&D of all the numerous Chinese W shaped kites?


Is this what we refer to as "grasping at straws"? I don't remember suggesting at any point that I was best placed to comment. I've rendered my opinion after seeing a good handful of them, thats about it. I've rendered my opinion on Rev as well over the years. I suspect that after 15 years of writing about and flying quad kites (almost all of'em over the years), I'm allowed, much in the same fashion you can choose to ignore my opinion. I won't be losing any sleep over that. There are many asian kite companies with new, original ideas out there. The Flying Wings guys, the Vamp Devil quad for example.

And just to clarify David, what exactly are you claiming as being copied from the 1.5 sized Rev kite that might be an infringement of UK IP law is it the W shape, the design, or something else?


I'm also wondering when I somehow managed to suggest I was an expert on UK IP law either ;-) But anyways, it's pretty much irrelevant. You will note I do not spend much time whinging about trademark, copyright, patent law because, guess what, I'm not a lawyer. See above, "grasping at straws"

All the comment on both here and the Rev forum have certainly help raise the profile of the various Chinese kites and suppliers, I wonder who best benefits from that. :P


In the end? Likely Rev as the flyers decide that quad kite flying is a lot of fun and perhaps it's time to move on to a better made kite.

With regards to the Los Hermanos boys, I suspect that they are far too busy making kites lately to deal with their own web site however, finding their kites is pretty easy. You could like see a few at any UK festival.
David Hathaway, Revolutionary
-~ http://www.iquad.ca
 
sailor99
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Re: W-Shaped 4 Line Kites (Non Rev)

Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:09 pm

Much as I don't want to disagree with you Harrier, I think you may be firing at the wrong target. Like Jezza says, monks is one of the good guys. He may not agree with everything you think. Hell he even thinks I talk rot on regular occasion, deity forbid! But he actually talks good reason, no doubt because he is from north of the boarder ;) Not everything rev is bad by any stretch of the imagination.

An aside in support of revs - their second hand value holds up remarkably well. I am getting back a high % of my investment value now I am selling. I doubt the other W shaped kites will hold up so well, although I maybe wrong and of course if you're only in for £80 or so there is not much to loose.
 
Harrier
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Re: W-Shaped 4 Line Kites (Non Rev)

Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:37 pm

You may be right J.

But "grasping at straws" seems an odd remark, I have nothing to lose or gain by the success of either Rev or Albatross in the kite market.
As with you the rumours have no foundation, a bunch of emails some just asking, some berating and some downright abusive arrived here a while back after one of JB‘s previous outbursts, they mostly accused me of designing for the Chinese, as those knowing of my graphic abilities are aware that’s one hell of a joke and I might say, from one hell of a “family”.

Being as Davids frequent comments regarding the quality and R&D of Albatross etc were at such odds to those expressed by many folk over here I wonder if they could be seen as a fair appraisal.

“I'm also wondering when I somehow managed to suggest I was an expert on UK IP law either”

As you probably know in the UK only a IP legal expert or court can reliably state whether a company is either counterfeiting or copying another companies product. Probably the same in other countries too.


“With regards to the Los Hermanos boys………..finding their kites is pretty easy. You could like see a few at any UK festival.”

Not many so far, but we can hope.

Hope to catch up at Portsmouth J. :cool:
 
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Old Greebo
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Re: W-Shaped 4 Line Kites (Non Rev)

Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:39 pm

Rev: £190 invested; £130 recovered after (say) 2 years. Interest lost on £180 (in ordinary times) for 2 years - say £18. Total loss £78.
Or ..
Alba: £84 invested; kite not even sold after 2 years. Interest lost on £84 (in ordinary times) for 2 years - say £8.40. Total loss £92.40.

So the 2-year cost of an Alba exceeds that of a Rev by £14.40. BUT you've still got your Alba at the end of the 2 years!
However ...
Is a nylon-winged Alba worth anything at all after 2 years?
Brian. (Past it, but reaching back!)
Silver Fox 2.5; HQ Shadow SUL; Rev 1.5 SLE; Spiderkites URO; Etc...
 
sailor99
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Re: W-Shaped 4 Line Kites (Non Rev)

Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:34 am

Looks like you're getting 5% on your savings Brian - your doing better than me!

But your analysis looks about right: you save in outlay initially, but the price of that MAY be to loose a little more.
 
sailor99
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Re: W-Shaped 4 Line Kites (Non Rev)

Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:36 am

Maybe you can become the virtual in house designer for my virtual oriental kite factory Harrier! You could virtually sign all the virtual sails 'professor' ;)