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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:02 pm
by Andy S
kitejan wrote:
anyway back to my WSQLKs (how would you say that by the way?)


"Rev." :badgrin:

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:21 pm
by Jezza
I would say it would sound like wuzkulks. I can't see it catching on though :)

Chinalutions?, RSQ's? 4LW's? 4LDT? (4 line double triangle lol!)

I have given up on reading that page, it has turned kind of sad and the quality of posts appear to be from the type of people who have no concept of what THIS thread is about. Or like to tell old and new customers they are part of a problem and have lost their minds. This was about expressing an opinion about the Albatross kite listed in an ebay advert which was/is absolutely NOT a counterfeit.
Now thanks to Revolution it is almost an advert for Albatross. Hey they even link here! I might email Alba and let them know they have free advertising which is officially endorsed!

What is going to happen when someone else who is now legally entitled makes a w-quad? Someone in Europe or something? Are they going to cordon us off like cuba? We may have to be smuggling in new kites or having to fly classics and construct our own out of old No Fear delta's. Oh the horror! ;)

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:22 pm
by kitejan
Andy S wrote:
"Rev." :badgrin:


Naughty.... :D

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:29 pm
by kitejan
Jezza wrote:
...What is going to happen when someone else who is now legally entitled makes a w-quad? Someone in Europe or something? Are they going to cordon us off like cuba? ...


Well... when I asked a couple of questions on rec.kites group back in 2003 about making a Rev, sorry WSQLK, sorry Rev I was, eventually, compared with Pol Pot (well the actual quote was "All the other despotic dictatorships commit genocide, it must be OK." -- Pol Pot - this was in answer to my point "Anyway from I have read here on rec.kites or seen elsewhere I certainly won't have been the only person to do so! " in relation to copying a Rev/WSQLK/Rev).

So who knows? Maybe this is the root cause of the US budget Deficit. All these people making their own/buying other (non US) kites. :-)

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:43 pm
by sailor99
Well, i spent my lunch break wading through the vitriol and I think I can see the wood for the trees now. There seem to be two problems really being complained about I think. One is counterfeit revolutions. Personally never seen one, but I think we all have total sympathy here. If someone or some company goes out to con people by pretending their product is something it isn't then they are simply conmen, crooks, criminals and deserve none of our support. So, major agreement there (I think?). Then there seems to be arguement that we should all buy revs exclusively because:
A) they are better
B) they are people who will loose a living if Chinese are allowed to get into the market.
C) Chinese kites are a copy of the rev design.
D) Revolution support events

Well, the first may well be true, but you pay a big premium for that. And that's fine. Personally I choose to pay that premium, but the next person may not. It's a free world. And the quality may not be as low as some people seem to think. The second point is pretty unproven. I suspect plenty of people will will still buy revs, but out of choice not compulsion. The third is absolutely true, and this point seems to be the crux of the issue. But people's position seems to indicate a basic lack of understanding of world patent protection laws. Protection is only granted reluctantly, and even then only for a ver strictly limited time period. All the major world powers have a clear and unambiguous position - inventions should not generally be protected and if they are the protection should be strictly time limited. So, the whole of the developed world's position on this issue would be that the Chinese are doing nothing wrong so stop moaning and get on with competing. If they have a problem with this they need to speak to their Senator, not to berate their customers. And Revolution needs to make some argument as to why they are a special case. And this maybe their fourth point. Certainly rev do seem to support events, albeit with a perfectly understandable North American Focus. But what they seem to be missing is that Albatross cannot support to the same extent because their prices are much lower. Nevertheless they do support Chinese events, and I have seen them at 1 UK event.

The other point made is that Albatross are not answering on the rev forum - I think the reason for that is that the Rev forum is one of many banned in shangdon. At least is was a couple of weeks ago when I was there (and that last sentence is bound to start up all the romours and accusations against me again - ho humm)

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:56 pm
by kitejan
Well - I agree with you totally - counterfeit products are wrong (i.e. something pretending to be made by Rev when it's not). As you say "simply conmen, crooks, criminals".

For me I can understand A) - we can argue for ever about which is the best kite anyway so the merits over a 1.5/1.5B/home-made copy/etc. etc. is what the Internet is for.
Point B) I have sympathy with the position - but in reality it's very difficult to achieve. And anyway I would prefer a UK over a US supplier if possible - but given just about everything come from China in some way then it's very very hard.
Point C) a great big "So?" - so long as the Rev-like thing isnt being sold as an official Rev then where is the harm in that these days? Free market and all that. Quality is most likely to be poor (but not always), and perhaps it wont fly as well - but you pays your money and takes your chances. And anyway people coming into the sport will most likely not want to buy a £200 kite but will try a £80 (or whatever) one. And if they are hooked they can then upgraded to something else - like, to pick an example at random, a Rev. Maybe it could be good for Rev in the long run targeting people who have the non-official Revs and offering them an upgrade path.....
Point D) well that is really good... but as I said I struggle with the whole single minded "family" thing coming for Rev - to the point I doubt I would attend with my kites (for the obvious and documented reason!). But cant argue that Rev have been promoting kites. It's a bit like taking your car to the dealership rather than a backstreet garage - those nice waiting areas, drinks, and potted plants are paid by someone - er, you!

I'm sure this will run and run (until someone puts the Rev forum thread out of it's misery).

Jan

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:00 pm
by sailor99
OT - thanks for swapping round your post to sort out the confusion I created KJ. 'Twass a horrible IT day - damn cheap Chinese routers ;)

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:04 pm
by Jezza
You know what makes me :shock: the most? It is that Albatross kites are getting copied by another factory in Weifang. A factory which has some scary Revolution clones ~spit for effect~ and it seems has monster rescources.

This believe it or not is an Albatross counterfeit :lol: :

(I've blurred all the logos because I am not here to advertise obvious makers of counterfeit kites)

Image

The sad thing is these guys (correct me if I am wrong here and this is not someones design they've just thrown on a W-quad) can it seems design something quite original. Yes It looks like a car crash with a van of quilt makers but it is actually quite nice in its own messed up way.

Image


They get even better on the second one when they have stopped sniffing the glue:

Image

The other thing that scared me apart from the colour was their 'patented'..wait for it...."stone washed carbon fiber rods" :shock:

The trouble is these guys openly support counterfeiting and should obviously be nuked from orbit. They have it blatently on the front page of the retail site they use so they are in essence a buch of pirates. Nobody here I'm sure no matter how much they want a kite to look like a 60s quilt would support them.
The strange thing is how good would these guys get if they were legit and not theiving Rev and Albatross (how very dare u!) pirates?

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:12 pm
by kitejan
I'm confused - so we have Revolution, then we have Albatross making WSQLKs (or according to monkey over at Rev forums also doing the actual counterfeits as well) , then we have another company copying the first 2?

This is almost as confusing as Inception....

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:19 pm
by misterbleepy
kitejan wrote:
...This is almost as confusing as Inception....


cool, not seen that film yet - are there kites in it? (I think there was a cody in Waterworld)

:lol:

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:51 pm
by Jezza
Yea I read that kitejan, I want to see the video of them walking in the factory past the albatross sign and catching them just sowing one up and that is the way I feel now. I just dont trust them after being called "part of the problem" and someone who has "lost their mind". It just makes me feel that someone who is ready jump on a forum hosted in another country, try and "re-educate" its members while on the other hand insulting them would stoop to anything.

The more they insult, the more they ruin their rep with me and the more I distrust.

I hope they do keep that page up because it just makes them look like a bunch of xenophobic paranoids instead of a professional company who should be able to shrug this off and ignore a page about an ebay ad for a kite that looks clearly not a "counterfeit". This page would of been 2 pages and a couple of opinions at most and people would of forgotten about it in a day or so.

=D>

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:52 pm
by SteveC
Looks like they've locked it now.

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:02 pm
by mnkby
kitejan wrote:
I'm confused - so we have Revolution, then we have Albatross making WSQLKs (or according to monkey over at Rev forums also doing the actual counterfeits as well) , then we have another company copying the first 2?

This is almost as confusing as Inception....


*smirk* Perhaps MORE confusing as Inception.

Kitejan, you manage to nail the problem precisely. The same companies making those oh so flash "Tribal" design W shaped kites (wasn't the whole tribal thing done 10 years ago? :D ) are the ones making the direct counterfeit kites. Therein lies the issue. As stated repeatedly elsewhere, Rev has long had no issue with people making their own Rev derivative. There's nothing stopping you nor anyone else from making their own design and the proof of this can be seen with Polo's kites, Shook's weaves. The Hendrix stack that was seen at Wildwood. Steve Polanksy and his gorgeous stacks of painted 1s. If albatross and weifang simply made their new graphic sails, fine, there's not much to be done really, but, it's been shown repeatedly that this simply isn't the case and again, it's not simply Revolution at odds here. Ask Lam Hoac how he feels about those companies stamping out nearly identical Sea Devils. Ask any kitemaker how they feel about it.

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:28 pm
by Flying Fish
But is it really Albatross which is making counterfeit kites (Revs or Sea Devils or whatever) today? When I check the Albatross web-site, I do not a single kite which appears to be a counterfeit kite. However, checking another Chinese kite company's web-site (won't mention a name) I DO see what appears to be Sea Devil counterfeits.

I fully admit not having a clear picture of which companies in China are making kites, and whether they all have their own factory or whether they obtain their kites from one or more shared factories. So if anyone could enlighten me in this, that would be great. Does Prism have their own factory in China?

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:15 pm
by mnkby
[quote="Dromel"]But is it really Albatross which is making counterfeit kites (Revs or Sea Devils or whatever) today?

Yes. Albatross, Weifang and others.