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Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:37 am
by Fungus
''Fungus, it's not British! It's just American!''

i was talking about my 'dream' car :lol:

bin thinkin - always think better when i'm walking dogs. :-)

this forum is trick/freestyle orientated !? and we see reports of satisfaction with DEEPSPACE, TALON,COSMIC etc would any of the owners of these accept a copy :?:

fungus :-)

Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:56 am
by Andy S
All those kites have:
Two lines
Delta shape
Rigid frame
Sail constructed of ripstop

To that extent they're as much copies of each other as these Albatross quads we're talking about here.

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:20 am
by Fungus
Andy S ''they're as much copies of each other''

yes you are right and didn't the orignal designers give their ideas freely and encourage copying and tweeking ? ( i don't know )

i'm loosing the argument here :lol:

fungus :-)

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:35 pm
by Jezza
I am a revolution and albatross kite-ist and have quite mixed feelings about this.

You see the argument revolution are putting forward (from what I read on the "IS IT THE BEGINNING OR THE END YOU DECIDE" thread on the official forums which points to this site directly ~wave~) is that buying albatross kites is going to cut evolutionary designs from them and probably destroy the company ending in no new designs at all.
It is very valid point, If revolution stopped making kites though someone else would start and probably evolve them in a different direction. Like make sail designs which are dare I say it, bold!, exciting! and daring!. Three words that I wouldnt normally associate with revolutions sails. They might get them made in china for a fraction of the cost while still reserving a hand made sail option for customers who clearly have more money than sense. Again value for money is not something I associate revolution kites with.
My alb flys as good as my 1.5-B and is clearly well made. I am not going to lie though, the thrill of opening a rev kite for the first time is not there, the quality packaging is not there. The poor quality but useful dvd with graphics from the 70's is not there and nor is the nice bag or very nicely weighted handles. But the £150 cost for all that is also gone.
Will albatross cost revolution some of my money? Doubtfull, my primary ~get it out of the bag when ladies or 2 line stunt heads are about~ kite will always be a rev. The albs I have just allow me to do things I would not think about normally. Like letting the kids/wife/gf have a go, flying it in high wind, taking a few more risks, cutting holes in it or changing bridles etc etc etc.

I think revolution need to worry MUCH more about someone forward thinking with some new ideas teaming up with the chinese than us lot here. Because that just might cause the "THE END" of revolution. Burying your head in the sand over pricing and design, having your most loyal acolytes rubbish any competition, relying on a loyal userbase through a seriously bad economic period and trying to bully people might also cause The Beginning Of The end!

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:36 pm
by Zippy8
Jezza wrote:
from what I read on the "IS IT THE BEGINNING OR THE END YOU DECIDE" thread on the official forums which points to this site directly

I just looked in on that thread and I am livid, livid I say, that someone* has taken a screenshot of a graphic I made and posted it without the correct and proper attribution. It's this kind of blah blah blah, etc. etc.

* say it ain't so.

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:10 pm
by Andy S
Got this far without laughing

evolutionary designs from them

Actually 'evolutionary' is a good description of the rate of change of quad-lines from Revolution, as far as I can see.

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:29 pm
by sailor99
I find the whole thing a bit saddening to be honest. Rev are a great company with great people and really loyal fans. They are by far the Market leader in their products. They do support events well, and have a great product. Yet they have fallen to bullying their fans, which seems really bizarre. And for a while they seemed to be claiming patent protection that didn't exist either geographically or temporally. And all the "it's made in the good old USA and therefore is the best of the best" business seems introspective at best. Then there is the China bashing which shows a very poor appreciation of a business culture that cold not be more different to the west. I honestly cannot see why they don't out compete Albatross. It is hugely within their capabilities.

None of the Chinese people I have met would be seen dead in a fake Burberry jacket, or wearing a fake rolex, or a fake Paul and Shark jumper. Shanghai is Bentley's biggest Market by a very long way - not China but one city in china is their biggest market. Chinese are happy to pay a massive premium for the 'real deal'. If Rev really want to stich this all up then IMHO they should vigourously attack the knock offs (which Albatross are not), make sure they offer a consistently better product than their competitors and start selling their products in China starting with Qingdao. Simples. It worked for my company. It worked for Gucci, Burberry, rolex, omega, mont blanc, givenchy,..........

But what do I know with all my years of experience in the far east (rolls eyes) - it appear I am now part of the problem not the solution.

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:58 pm
by Jezza
I enjoyed your previous post sailor99 and this last one is equally as interesting. In fact this whole thread is littered with some very good posts on the subject from people who appear to like Revolution but dislike the almost cult like behaviour and practices.

In an ideal world Revolution would team up with the chinese and have manufactured a decent budget kite. In albatross they wouldn't even have to do anything apart from maybe teach them how to make neat bridles and some other little bits & pieces like presentation. After that charge them a % to make your kite, slap on a 20-40 quid for the logo + presentation etc and you'd have a decent kite for £100-£120 quid.

I know it's just a dream but hey, dreams build worlds.

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:02 pm
by kitejan
Good post sailor99 - it does seem a strange way for Rev to win friends, but hey what do I know?

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:27 pm
by Jezza
OT but I would just like to say Kitejan I really like your kite website very much! Have spent much time there reading your opinions and ideas etc.

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:23 pm
by Jezza
I've just been reading today's updates on the "IS IT THE BEGINNING OR THE END YOU DECIDE" cult of revolution thread. I find it extrodinary that the supporters who post are continuing in an almost xenophobic fashion to label the Chinese Albatross quad kites illegal copies when in my understanding they neither break any copywrite laws or are in any shape or form ment to be a revolution kite.
For me the reputation of revolution has been damaged by its zelot like behaviour and insistance on misinformation and blatent untruths.

For this reason I am going to go back to the original theme of this whole posting and put up my mini review/opinion. I am not going to encourage anyone to buy anything and I'm not going to disrespect anything, I'm just saying what I've found and you can make your own minds up in a democratic fashion.

I brought an updated/latest model which is the most expensive (only by a few £'s) of the albatross rev style quads. It is listed (on albatross's offical retail page) as having a "Icarex pc31" sail and is slightly different to the tribal design which has a Nylon sail. It comes in ltblue/black/pinkish-red, red/white/black and almost german national colours. I can't really confirm what sort of sail it is but I have noticed it doesn't appear to bulge out quite as much as the tribals. It is also strange that having flown both side by side the tribal seems to be a little slower and more precise where the "Icarex pc31" sailed one seems to be a little quicker and stiffer. I'm not sure which one I prefer really, I guess the supposed Icarex model does feel a little more 1.5B like in its speed where as the tribal feels a little more forgiving and friendly.

The Frame is I would say a 4 wrap construction and made of wrapped carbon tube. It is hard to say for sure how many wraps but they are slightly stiffer than the rev 3 wrap spars. On the scales they come in at around 16g each. I have not broken one yet and often swap to them on my 1.5B Full sail when the wind gets up. You can actually buy them in a box of 5 for £6 each from the gentleman who sells the albs on ebay if you ask him nicely so I have been informed. The dimensions of the Alb are very slightly different to the Rev but not by much. Everything can be directly interchanged with 1.5 parts without any modification.

The handles are of a shallower bend than the revolution and lighter. They are of decent enough quality but I much prefer my revolution handles. The lines are some heavy duty 150lb dyneema items which are quite heavy, they also twist up with bowel movement regularity so upgrade when you can.

The bridles vary, some I've seen have bigger ungainly knots and excess than others but they're all finished nicely with some areas sown up for extra strength. All the Albs I've seen or used have had good quality stitching equal to that of any normal production kite. I've only ever heard of one which was not up to par but that was returned and exchanged without any problems.

I personally think they fly the same. I certainly would not say that if they didn't fly the same, infact I would be the first person to point out the differences. The caviat to this is they may not fly the same when you get them, you may need to tweek or trim them up to your own personal preferences. I have flown them perfect out of the box but I know of people who have made bridle adjustments or adjusted end cap tensions etc. It is just personal preference.

As a first quad line kite of this type I would get a revolution, even if I could go back right now and have none at all but know what they're all like I'd still buy a revolution 1.5 first. You cannot get away from the fact it is a nice package, you know what you are getting, the handles are very nice and lines of a good quality etc. Plus I want to keep my fav kiteshop stocking them and making money until he starts importing chinese versions (doubtfull but would be amusing).

BUT, and its a upper case BUT, I probably would not buy anymore unless my rev had become damaged. I may persuade my family etc to put money towards a rev vented at xmas but for the future I will just keep buying cheap albs without lines and handles for £60.
As I indicated before I will save the rev for best like a good suit and my alb will be something for letting the family/friends fly and just messing with down the park on a variable wind day or purely for minimising wear and tear on the rev. I might tea bag one or cut some experimental slots here or there. I certainly would not do that with a rev simply because of the initial cost.
Despite my inclination towards good suits I do not have much of a disposable income so that single rev would of been my only quad for a considerable time with maybe a vented in my bag in future. I do not consider my actions to be that of a person who is depriving anyone of my money, infact to the contrary, I suspect I might well buy a few genuine revolution parts to put on my alb in the future :wink:

and that was my opinion, if it upsets anyone then I am sorry, maybe you need to relax and have an icecream.

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:04 pm
by sailor99
Been reading in the other place. I find it hard to understand and credit. People in this thread have said time and again they will not countenance 'knock offs'. Any watch/kite/perfume that is pretending to be a rolex/rev/gucci has no place in our lives. Yet people here seem to be being accused of promoting knock offs. Baffles me - you say 'I will have no truck with knock offs' and that is interpreted as supporting knock offs. It's as if there is a belief that an Albatross WSQLK is a knock off - yet it patently (excuse the pun) isn't. It is simply a cheap WSQLK. So, is a Timex a knock off Omega? Is Number 7 knock off Channel? Is a Ford a knock off Rolls? Each of them is essentially the same as the other half of the couplet, except cheaper and to a different quality standard. You pays your money you makes your choice. Having tried both, for me it is a rev every time. But thats just me and I certainly will not have my decisions dictated to me. Maybe Highwayman is a knock off Kiteworld and Bristol Festival is a knock off of Portsmouth. Am I a knock off of George Clooney - I do hope so.

I think I have lost the plot of what rev's issue is now - is it WSQLKs, albatros WSQLKs, albatross kites with rev written on (if there is such a thing as I have never seen one), Chinese kites, Chinese manufacturing, china generally, all pinko commies.... Who knows

All this bad blood and posturing. Anyone fancy teaching me how to fly a TS2LK?. :)

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:54 am
by Flying Fish
I think I have lost the plot of what rev's issue is now

If it's any consolation, you're not the only one .... Reading through the thread in the other place, every time I think they're talking about counterfeit kites (for clarity's sake: kites which appear to be Revs because of sail design, logos, etc, and which have been condemned again and again here) and I am ready to agree with the poster, it appears that a perfectly legit WSQLK (so W-shape, no Revolution logos, different sail design, no allusion to Rev in the name or marketing) is thrown on the same pile again and I have to make a quick mental U-turn and disagree with the poster.

Counterfeit kites don't even need to be discussed, the case against them is 100% crystal clear. So I assume that that's what they're talking about when the example is given of someone buying one of these and complaining to Rev about it falling apart. Otherwise, it's akin to me buying a xxxxx (fill in any company that mass-produces mid-range dual-line delta kites in China) and then complaining to Tim Benson when there is a problem with it, just because a Deep Space has the same delta shape, two spreaders, four stand-offs, etc.

Seems to me that Revolution has difficulty coming to terms with the fact that there is a world out there where products are available in a range of quality and associated price levels. With dual-line deltas, there are the No Fears at the one end, and the Bensons/JoEs/etc at the other. And lots in-between. I don't see Tim or Mark ranting on about the fact that the makers of the No Fear kites have done nothing in terms of innovation and that a No Fear is a knock-off DS/Talon and that therefore everyone who buys a No Fear is part of the problem. The market has a place for No Fears, mid-range deltas, and for high-end deltas. Everyone happy in two-line land :cool:

Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:36 am
by kitejan
Add me to the list of people who have seriously lost the plot as to what the Rev guys are getting upset about now. I constructed a long post adding my "thoughts" to the matter then (a couple of hours later) had second thoughts and removed it - it wasn't going to help, shall we say :)

I have sympathy with Rev over the counterfeit issue - I would guess we all do - but there does seem to be a "problem" with ANY kite that looks a bit like a Rev... even if it doesnt pretend to be.

It's all a bit sad really - anyway back to my WSQLKs (how would you say that by the way?).


Re: Ebay << 290580603675 >>

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:11 pm
by NEX
"WSQLKs (how would you say that by the way?)."

If you was a yank Dubya's

Them are properly froffin watch out for the nukes y'all