Big ball of sticky wax dude.


Yeah..you are missing something because the average smuck out there is also looking for a bargain and a real rev aint cheap. But for a hundred dollars you can snag a fake one on ebay and certain select kite stores. Mr smucko doesnt know about real revs and the rev logo, as a matter a fact the the knock off kites advertising literature mentions Rev in it. Hunh? must be a rev kite right? Where do you draw the line?
For 100 bucks you can buy (a fake) one at the entrance of my flying field from a guy with a mini van full of rev-alikes, supersonics, 1.5's, some big mylar one along with some impressive canard knock offs and power foils. Believe me some of those knock offs dont always fly so well, so what if that new buyer then decides that this REV kite sucks.
He paid $100 dollars for one and it sucked. Even on a beach it sucked. Why would smucko go and gamble his cash on a second try?

The well has been poisoned.



Well i dont know.. how many? Certainly the guys that invented it and owned the patent are entitled to something right? Where do you draw the line? Your acting as if Rev has made it impossible for anyone to make a quad lined kite? Is it asking too much that so called kite designers try to use their own creative peanut and make something original like the Hadziki's did? I dont see anyone copying the neos omega...no they're copying the kites that work, the kites that have all been figured out already. Youre not telling me anything new here. Same argument different person.
Gomberg & Peter Lynn make some big cool kites right? I want a few...should I just start making the kites they designed and protect because I want one? I can make my own octopile, you know how much money i can save? Truth be told People were making knock off revs waay before rev lost their papers. Is it because theyre so easy to construct? or because so many had already done it prior and the door was already open?

The well has been poisoned.



I'm not a rev guy so i wouldn't know rev performance but i bet if you were talking to someone that knew the flying nuances of revs, someone that could actually fly one well They might notice. Here's a quad line kite made from a plastic tarp. My own design:roll: I'm sure it flies fine.



BTW:
I own a Benson deep space and i copied it. twice. I made a vented experiment and another lighter model. I don't think you were even flying kites then or at least on kite forums but you're right neither of them flew like a Benson deep space and i never called them a Benson Deep Space. Strangely the second copy i made, the red one. I liked it and prefer flying it more than my Benson made deep space. I still fly that old ass kite and i never have called it a Benson deep space. And obi i can knock off pretty much any sport kite and make it fly the same as the original. Your MMV- mine doesn't.



Jeez An old idea? Why hasnt this design progressed beyond this terribly old decayed idea? Probably obi because its a pretty good idea as far as kites go. So good, that all over the world people are copying it and calling it their own and making money from it.

My question is why havent the guys who make these Rev copies given back to the community? Why dont they take all that valuable info they've garnered like sail loading ,bridling,weight distribution and spar flex that theyve figured out in creating their masterful rev copy and give back? You wanna know why? Because theyre not creating anything.. theyre copying. And copying is the easy part.

If it ISN'T a rev, then why call it one?

Can i create a kite company named klitehaus and knock off cosmic tc's and sins one by one and sell them for a couple of hundred less? Or maybe i could just change a little something and then release the plans on KPB? I mean how long can they sit on a kite design? This is the modern world ya know...


Rev is owned by someone, a family. Maybe a family that you dont respect, but i do.


Bob Biniak rest in peace

It seems that Revolution must be cool with what Guido does 'cos back in September 2009 they even posted a link a video of his EuroCup winning routine on Facebook and according to STACK's website it was using a "self made rev based kite".

When it was even posted on Rev's own forum that he won "flying his homebuilt Rev 1.5 shape with quadsticks and no bridle" it didn't seem to attract their condemnation.

So that's all cleared up then.

Mike.

Again, I will acknowledge that I have offered no new arguments. Check. I will continue to type, as I am procrastinating at work.

I stand by my belief that making one for yourself is VERY VERY different than making one and selling it, even at cost. The fact that lawsuits are expensive is nothing to pity (first post), and the 'bad publicity' argument is a poor argument that only plays as a hypothetical in a courtroom and only when the accused is actively selling his own 'rev shoddy ed.'. It assumes too many things, including that every knock off is noticeably inferior, and not any fun at all. This is of course nonsense. If they fly even reasonably well, then a poor copy will only bring customers to Revolution looking for more. Sorry, this argument doesn't hold water for too many different reasons. I bought a Prism to start, but I came to my senses. And I didn't walk away from kites. I bought UP. Maybe we aren't arguing this point? Of course we aren't. Buying up in Revolution terms isn't possible legally.

If these guys in Italy are selling kites they build, AND they are in copyright violation, I'd find that a shame for everyone. (See HERE?) BUT:

IMHO, there is a very large grey area between 'inspired by' and 'copied and sold as the Real Thing', and Revolution as a company should steer clear of the grey area near the former and focus on the latter. I think posting links to videos of 'self made rev kites' on their web-locales is a good example of how to play nice and I am impressed by this tactic. They should continue to direct the dialog by addressing the obvious short-comings they notice in the vids, and point out that these are due to an inferior copy kite. No problem with that. I am less impressed if in order to stop some Italians from selling their kites at what can only be cost (for 70 euros?!), they'd hire a lawyer to defend their exclusive rights to the design rather than finding another way...or leaving it be. It is Italy after all. If there are so many kites to be sold there, surely they can find a willing dealer and start competing, right? Oh wait, this isn't about competition and who's kites are better made. It's about exclusive rights to a design. Sorry 'bout that.

If someone else in America makes money using their patented design, that's unfair. If someone makes NO money off of their patented design IN ITALY, I just keeping thinking, 'Who cares?!'. Are you actively selling in that market in Italian kite shops? Are the owners of these stores who put their faith in the Revolution brand losing business because of this infringement? Or have they in essence OPENED that market to Revolution? Some grey areas here for me.

Do they build their kites in the USA? If not, where are they made and why? I guess I wonder how much is middle man and legal work, and how much is kite builder/designer work. Again, one is worth a little more respect than the other IMHO.

So many folks would take copying of their design as a compliment rather than a threat to them, would find a way to use the copying to their advantage ('accept no substitutes' or 'copied by never equaled'), and it's this strict cut-throat thought train that turns most kite flyers off with respect to this topic.

Perfect. Time for a meeting.

obi

I don't think Rev or JohnB are trying to stop anyone from making their own rev-like kite. In the Rev forum people post pics without any flack I've noticed.

I recall JB posting that it should be called rev-like in the forum as Revolution is a brand name being protected. Fail to protect it and you loose it.

Putting someone else's brand name on a commercial product is illegal or at least theft of the work the owner puts in and defrauding the buyer if they know enough for the name to mean anything.

Their stance seems reasonable to me.

My suggestion for some sort of contest was based on my belief that trying to stop copying from China (or anywhere else) is about as productive as pissing up a rope. I'm sure the Rev people know it won't work.

Complaining about or putting down people who have no interest in maintaining a companys position gets nowhere.

That people selling or flying non-branded rev-like kites definately takes money from Rev is an assertion that I don't think is necessarily true. Not near enough data and there are other reasonable outcomes.

Think they're left with ignoring or co-opting. I think JBs forum moderation has gone inclusive within the requests for no logo or exact name copying.

While I'm on the subject of relief there's that old saying, "Better to have them in the tent pissing out than on the outside pissing in".

Seems to me Revolution(TM) might be a victim of their own success, like Hoover and Biro (and many others I'm sure Mike could name ).

Their name has gone from being a specific trademark to a generic name for most (but I admit not all) sport kites with 4 likes.

That's difficult to step back from, and it's essentially because the contraction "REV" is so easy to say.
Maybe we should get all non-revolution look-a-likes to be branded "NOT A"

As for EC09, I'm think only 2 of 8 competitors used a genuine rev, two were genuine original designs and 4 were rev-a-likes, placed 1,3,4,5 overall.

I also think STACK/AKA/AJSKA within the IRBC have a lot to answer for in this, the multi line figures all use the rev shape in the drawings, suggesting that it is a generic shape expected for all quad lines, just like the delta is the generic shape for the dual line figures. And if I had to guess the figures also work best with that shaped kite, certainly in terms of visibility for the judges.

Note that the competition is not quad line but multi line, has anyone ever tried to use a 3 or 5 line kite to compete with?

I thought I'd look into this in my ever continuing spirit of inquisitiveness. Revolution Kites own forum rules state:-

While Revolution Kites does not specifically take exception to homemade "Rev style" kites, these postings are prohibited:

* Rev kite plans
* Copies of Rev designs
* Links to any web content promoting Rev clones (other companies, eBay, etc)
* Other content that could support or encourage commercial cloning of Rev kites

I actually think this is pretty damn fair but does reinforce the idea of "Rev" being a generic term. Guido/Dave's kite isn't a Rev but it is a "Rev".

I'm completely with them regarding commercial counterfeiting and trademark abuse.

Mike.

Here's one vaguely related to Zippy's post. What the hell are quadsticks? My limited GoogleFu only shows me canes with four feet . The 'Rev Gurus' and 'Rev Legends' on the link refer to them as training wheels?

obi

mentioned here:

http://www.revkites.com/forum/index.php ... entry59009

and the main topic thread is here:

http://www.revkites.com/forum/index.php ... ad-sticks/

Keith that is amazing insight. thanks.

obi I Know i said in my email that i was not going to further this one but..
insulting their company isnt making your argument any stronger dude. It sounds as if you have had a bad experience with the quality of Revolution products. I didnt even know you flew quads. But i guess you can say what you want about them from past experience and i wont argue it.

The link i sent you...could you kill it? Like i said in my mail I'm not trying to stick my finger in someones face, it was an example. And not the only example i was sent.

I'll try to answer some of your questions and then I'll give you a little story.



Dude that's a lot of data to collect, I bet most of these kite shops barely know how to fill out their quarterly taxes and its kinda hard to compete with FREE-KITE. but YES there is a kite dealer there that distribute for them. a couple of em. One of the dealers used to make interesting stunt kites a long time ago. I'm sure they sell a bunch of revs. And it appears they've embedded my 3-d video onto their site right next to the prism 3-d that they sell. wtf? Does everyone want something for free?




Yeah, i think they make them in a warehouse. In the usa. north county san diego. They also make carbon stuff like.. some of the rods to their kites, golf club shafts , carbon skateboards -n- stuff. As to the legal/middle/builder/designer stuff I would assume like most companies they work hand in hand.

The other questions...google it.

Here's my deal with this and the reason i came out swinging like i did. A few months ago i was asked to share some plans. Some plans to stunt kites that are still in production.

One..I had changed to make it do what i wanted. I guess you could say it was 'inspired by' but i know what it is and who owns it, so I'm not making any claims to it.
My inspiration was just to fix something and in doing so it made the kite better behaved. The other kites.. whatevr.. everyone wants to try the new bling just to see if they still believe in magic. Don't we all?

I didnt share my patterns with them because at that point i always thought that it was sort of a taboo to just snag someones kite design and fiddle with it and to call it my own. But from what you are saying it's perfectly okay to share it as long as its for personal use and not for sale. No harm No foul.
The pattern template is a little different from the original design and the other 3 are just copies for personal use. I know that these kite companies dont have money to sue me for it. So why do i still feel weird even if you've just rationalized it to me in laymans terms?



I guess you're right... Its not really the kite designers lively hood that's at stake. They most likely have regular jobs and this is more hobby than business. And it is just an idea. So why not keep the ball rolling and further their idea.

I thought of this experiment. I'll give those guys the plans to the kites they want. Then their whole club can build them and fly them for a while. We could then see
how many of them go out and order the real versions from the kite makers themselves. Maybe you could help me with the math stuff cuz I'm not so good with the digits and we could make a fancy graph of some sort to chart relative sales loss and gain from distributing plans and specs of newly released kites.
We could do it with every new kite that comes out. Make a template and distribute the plans amongst ourselves right when a kite gets released and use our chart to keep track of sales loss and gain to finally get an answer to this riddle. Problem solved!
Why didn't i think of this before?

btw: sorry guys if i came off harsh, its just an on going topic that has irked me for a while and now through expertise and infinite wisdom I've found an answer. :D

sorry for the length.



Bob Biniak rest in peace

Guys, i think there is a problem... You never see a maiocchi and a barresi kite togheter? There are 2 completely different kite, 2 completely different project, and they fly different, like the organic and the nirvana... But wait a moment, this last 2 kites have a delta shape very similar... The organic is a violation of copyright like all other delta shape kite? Mmm... I think no. Why? Answer yourself to this question.

Obi, a question: what do you mean with "It is Italy after all."?

Sorry for my english.

Dave, I think everyone is aware that the Maiocchi VTD IS NOT a direct copy of the rev.
For the books I never stated it was a direct copy. It's just the idea, that it is a kite so similar to a revolution kite design that bugs at least me. Well that and the name.
I follow your blog and saw the video of it in action. Looks like it is a fun development!
And like i mentioned it is a very pretty kite you made, Bravissimi.. better than most i have seen.

The organic and others like it are not protected because (someone please correct me)
Ron Reich let the patent expire or something like that.. (someone please correct me)
So one can make any variation of a delta stunt kite they want without getting into legal troubles. sorta..

The Organic Rocks! That thing is crazy fun in the right wind!
How could something so fun be bad? :D

That Italy comment. I think he meant you guys were a small group and insignificant in the kite world so whats the big deal. But i could be wrong. L0L

Ciao,
Rob

Thanks for clarification Rob!

Well possibly but here's the problem.... identify these kites from their silhouettes.




The first one could be any number of things but the second is definitely a "Rev". Guido's (and your) kite looks like a Rev and makes use of several items in their protected but expired patent so it's easy to call it a Rev, even if Revolution Kites have had nothing to do with it.

Many of the design elements in a duallie are covered by DAN TABOR's patents but he chose to make them freely available, yea verily even unto his commercial competitors, so anyone can sketch up a delta dual line kite although copying another design is another matter.

But any ways... Rev themselves seem to be cool (enough) with it so remain calm.

Mike.

Thanks mike for the clarification. :-D
I knew it was one those guys on that team.

I'm not put off in the least that Guido would make a quad kite, "Rev style", based on the things that he likes in such a kite... Granted, I actually don't work for Rev, I'm just an advocate and loyal flier.

It is damned interesting, although the specs are clearly different than mine, that he chose to use very similar pattern as the B-Series Pro (identical number of panels and general layout) instead of making a left turn... And am I to understand he's published the plans somewhere online?

I can't speak for Rev on this, and I'm really not interested in pursuing it myself... But it is very chewy food for thought.