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sprdbryj
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540 Tips

Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:55 pm

Can anyone offer advice on 540s?

On floatier kites eg ULs and SULs I can do them no problem, but its still a very 'hit and miss' trick for me on standard kites.

Any tips?
 
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Infinitive
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Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:51 pm

Maybe ABW's comments on the trick will help.

If you can do them on light kites you'd think it'd be easy to self-diagnose... hey I'm in Bristol too, I fly up on the Clifton down, somtimes with John (Seales) and Nigel (oldflyer), we're friendly so come and have a fly with us and we'll sort your 540 woes. 8)
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Andy S
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Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:00 am

What cracked it for me was when Jason told me to take a big step forwards and turn sideways with the flaring arm forwards, just to get even more flare going. You can tame it down a bit once you get the hang of it.
 
damp_weather
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Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:49 am

540s - the only trick so far that I had to learn 3 times, as I had two intervals each lasting several months where I couldn't do them. So they have a special significance for me.

If you can do them on floatier kites but not on modern standards, I have a couple of suggestions:

1) Maybe it is a matter of the speed at which the trick is being done. One big thing for me was to realise that the arm being thrown forward should start moving before the other arm, so that the kite would adopt the correct angle about the vertical axis. - I had been throwing both arms forward together with one arm stopping before the other, but that didn't work as the kite wasn't turning enough about the vertical axis, and so the pop didn't apply a pull in the correct direction.

2) With me, the kite doesn't go completely flat. - For when I flared it completely flat, the kite would often tangle with the lines during the flat spin. Instead I angle the kite so that the belly can always be seen during the spin. i.e. the axis of rotation is slightly off the vertical, pointing away from the flyer.


Anyway, when you figure out what your particular problem was, could you please report back here?
 
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oldflyer
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Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:09 pm

I have to admit that I generally have the same problem as James here. Jon (Seales) kindly spent some time teaching me how to do them but I can’t do them consistently at all. Some days I can knock them out easily (usually when Jon is correcting me) whereas other days I find them impossible. 540s seem to be the one trick that is very sensitive to inputs/timing etc. I must practice more!
 
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ObijuanKenobe
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Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:13 pm

oldflyer wrote:
540s seem to be the one trick that is very sensitive to inputs/timing etc.


:lol: Is that the only one?

obi
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atho
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Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:07 pm

I also battle with 540's, I think I have got the same problem you had damp water.':('
 
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kevspilly
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Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:15 pm

Turn sideways with the with the flaring arm forwards, just to get even more flare going.

I use that and it helps, but I'm still not consistent.

I agree SUL's are easier as they give more time to see what’s happening.

I've noticed that I've not seen a 540 with a really flat spin on video (unless of course you know different) done with a standard kite.
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Aeri
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Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:02 pm

an ul kite needs a smaler input to make it spin... use the wrist to pull and then lots and lots and lots of slack...
try at the edge and once confident go to the center..
Old school was a great school
 
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jr
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Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:30 pm

 
sprdbryj
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Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:08 pm

With a standard kite the kite tends to stop at 180 rather than doing the extra 360.

It isn't a slack issue, so I'm wondering if I need to pop slightly earlier with a heavier kite?
 
damp_weather
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Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:57 pm

sprdbryj wrote:
With a standard kite the kite tends to stop at 180 rather than doing the extra 360.

It isn't a slack issue, so I'm wondering if I need to pop slightly earlier with a heavier kite?

Popping early - sounds dangerous - like the kite may start going into a fade, perhaps cock-eyed as you are also trying to flat-spin it.

I believe that it is just a matter of getting enough spin for the kite to go around over 360 degrees (why not 1.5 times = full 540? well near the end the lines are being picked up to recover the kite, and that can help with the very last bit of the turn).

So how to get that spin? - If the pop is applied while the nose is fully away, the direction of pull at the upper leading edge attachment point passes close to the centre of mass of the kite (which is near the centre tee). So some of the pull gets converted into moving the kite towards the flyer. It would be nice to convert as much of the pull as possible into flatspin rotation, and for this, the distance between the centre of mass and where the line of pull comes closest to the centre of mass should be as great as possible. This distance is near its greatest when the leading edge's wingtip is pointing back to the flyer.
So the trick is to pop when the kite has already rotated enough that the leading edge's wingtip is pointing back to the flyer. All that throwing of one arm in front of the other together with stepping forward with the leg on the side of the arm being thrown forward is (partly) to give the initial rotation that will turn the kite far enough that the leading edge of the side to be popped is facing in the right direction. (I think that the other reason for all that throwing forward is that this gives a good start to the spin.)

- The above method also explains why I have to angle the kite a little away from the horizontal in the flatspin. When the line is popped, the line is running very close to the leading edge, and is just asking to tangle with it (even if the pop is followed by lots of slack). Angling the kite so that the wingtip is slightly above the line helps avoid an otherwise likely tangle.

- Perhaps this is much easier to explain with a few diagrams, but I haven't drawn them yet.

So why are lighter kites easier to 540?
- Well are they? Or is it just that older style flatter sail light wind kites are easier to flatspin?
Generally speaking, with axels and flatspins, it is good to have some angular momentum (which is roughly speaking, weight towards the edges of the kite) to carry the spins around. The kite is being slowed down by the air it is spinning through, so more angular momentum for the same size of kite is a good thing. - i.e. for the same design of kite: standards are better than SULs for 540s.
But taking a nice flat light wind kite like a Benson Inner Space, its sail is flatter so that it cuts through the air better and needs less angular momentum to carry it around.
Maybe the problem is that everything happens faster with a standard in heavier winds, and so timing is more important??
 
sprdbryj
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Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:11 pm

Flew a vented for an hour last night in 15-20 mph winds and managed some 540s!

Turning sideways really helped but what I discovered was the kite needs to hit the end of the taught line and start turning before the pop input. The pop gives momentum to an already turning kite.

More practice definitely necessary but I now know what I need to do.

Thanks for the tips guys.
 
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Aeri
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Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:46 pm

The pop gives momentum to an already turning kite.


exactly right
Old school was a great school
 
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seales
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Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:56 pm

Enough slack soon enough after the 'pop' to let that side rotate away from you again. I find it's almost a flick of the wrist as your arm continues forward. Also, as the wind speed is probably higher when your flying the standard this may be more critical.
I had a very similar problem with backspins soon after i learnt them, not giving proper slack after the 'pop' and pulling the kite out after 180deg as the wind tried to rotate away.

Also the uneven flare should give the kite some '540 momentum' before the actual pop, so pop and slack before this is lost otherwise the kite may be reluctant to go around. As timing/positioning improves you might be able to reduce this 'turn in'. This overlaps with the next bit.

My other thought was the 'pop' might be too long/delayed? If it's pulling that side towards you, rather than just stopping the forward motion of the flare for that side, it will 'scoop' upwards and pull the nose down into the lines even with sufficient slack.
(Rambling thoughts: if the pause from flare to pop is too long and may even need to be eliminated - wing no longer stalled-so lift generated? Also if the pitch motion of the flare stops before the input - no momentum to cancel out the pitch impulse from the 'pop' - so the kite pitches downwards?)

Started fiddling with this before your third post, so sorry for repetitions.

Jon