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Zippy8
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Re: Something to read

Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:36 am

damp_weather wrote:
Time to admit that I've been creating some notes around sport kite flying.

Can I just ask what your intention was with this project ? I see that a number of people have suggested self publishing but is that what you set out to do ?

I'd just like to know.

Mike.
 
damp_weather
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Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:38 am

Hi,

Thanks to everyone's very positive comments (there haven't been any negative ones just yet), and thanks to everyone who has helped me with corrections so far. And thanks to those flyers who proof-read and fed back on earlier drafts. - That is probably what helped this version be so accepted.


Here are some responses to issues raised.

misterbleepy wrote:
...are you planning on maintaining/updating it on a regular basis?

- In short, yes.

Originally it started out as some notes - memory aids - just for myself and my partner. I think I started writing it in spring 2007. Somewhere in between then and now it became more formal. Now it includes some descriptions that others have suggested but that I wouldn't have added for my own benefit (e.g. the pictures naming parts of sports kites, and the safety warnings).

But I would still be updating it as I learned more, even if no-one else was reading it.


Zippy8 wrote:
damp_weather wrote:
Time to admit that I've been creating some notes around sport kite flying.

Can I just ask what your intention was with this project ? I see that a number of people have suggested self publishing but is that what you set out to do ?

I'd just like to know.

Mike.

I did not originally set out to publish a book. I did not originally even set out with the intention of widely distributing the notes. But somewhere along the line, - I think it was by 2008, I started realising that there wasn't anything else out there like what I was creating, and also that many other newbies would like a reference.
The other thing that really got to me was the lack of good tutorial information on tricks. - I am in full accord with what for example Craig recently wrote about learning faster when you are around other better flyers. The trouble is, most of us aren't regularly near other flyers. And despite all the good videos out there, we found it impossible to learn just by trying our very best to copy the videos. The more I looked at the videos, and when I finally started mastering a new trick, I realised just how much explanation was missing from any video. So I got to wanting to explain more about tricks so that others would not have to go through the same agony that we have been going through. - Well hopefully they will go through less of the agony.
Section 5.4 on backflips gives a feeling for the sort of explanations that I am intending to include for other tricks.

Now, I have still to learn many tricks, and I haven't even yet properly written up some of the tricks that I can do. Moreover, when I try to teach others tricks that I can do well, I often don't do so well at it because I don't yet understand all the ways that they can go wrong. So for those reasons I consider the notes no-where near complete, and aren't so keen on creating a lulu copy just yet.

But there is one thing that I learnt from my old job - and that is, even if a work isn't complete, it can be useful to others. Also early feedback helps to make work better. So distribution of incomplete works can be beneficial to all.
(The number of times we haven't published something because bosses worried it was not complete or checked sufficiently, only to loose market kudos because someone else published a less thorough work while we were prevaricating.)

So Mike, regarding my intentions - in summary, no I didn't intend to self-publish, but that changed when I realised that there wasn't a similar book out there, and others did want such a thing.
And regarding self-publishing a printed copy - I don't think that the notes are in a full enough state yet. Will there be a printed version - I don't know - let's see how things go.

By the way, Mike, someone like you, with your long kiting history, large photo archive, and spectacular in-depth knowledge could probably do a quicker and much better job at this than me.

My one advantage - if you can call it that, is that my partner and I are newbies/intermediates, still learning, and so are directly experiencing what it is like to do a trick or ballet routine wrong, and learning why they go wrong. (The tricks where I am failing to understand others difficulties are the ones that I learnt before I started noting what happened when I didn't do the trick correctly. For example, axels was the first trick I learnt, and I find it very hard to know how to fail to do an axel.)


Photography permissions....

Thanks to those of you who have discussed this with me. I was getting quite worried about this. - So I am also talking to friends who are a professional cameraman/photographer and an intellectual property expert. (And I will be asking for second opinions). In summary the subject is a minefield, and I don't think that any single one of us is likely to be completely right in our views.

It does seem that unless there is a specific ban in force (e.g. a railway station, certain parks or Trafalgar Square), and subject to not causing an obstruction or invading privacy (e.g. photographing someone stripping off) one can take commercial photographs in a public highway or other public place without seeking permission.

After my initial dismay, I realised that about 4 years ago I had encountered a similar situation professionally. We were contributing to a book, and my chapter included descriptions of products and their measured properties, for which we had taken all the photographs and created the text. The concern was, were we breaking the law in including data on and photographs of the products in the book without the manufacturers' permissions? - The answer from our intellectual property people was an emphatic "NO". However in the interests of continuing good relations between companies, we did approach the manufacturers of the products with a draft of what we intended to publish, giving them the opportunity to comment on the draft or object to its inclusion. - If they had objected, we would have taken out the information on their product, because we wanted to keep on good terms with everyone. In the end, every single manufacturer agreed with the bulk of what we had written (even when it wasn't fully complimentary). - One of the permissions came at the 11th hour, I had had to issue that manufacturer with an ultimatum to respond or else the publication schedule meant I had to take out the material on their product. I guess in the end, all the manufacturers said to themselves that some publicity was much better than none at all.

So I propose to do something similar for these notes - Over the coming months, for most of those pictures I am retaining or adding where I know the owners or can recognise the key figures in the picture, I'll try to contact the owners/people, and see if they object. If they don't object, they can choose to have an acknowledgement included (it isn't obligatory). If they do object I will remove or not include the picture as a gesture of goodwill.
After all, generally speaking the aim among kite flyers is not to upset each other. :)

By the way - looking through my old archives - less than one picture in 20 of public flying is good enough or interesting enough to include in the notes. For that reason I don't often want to formally ask people before I take the photograph. If I did ask them every time, I would be asking an awful lot for the sake of very few pictures.
Last edited by damp_weather on Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Miles F
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Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:37 am

damp_weather wrote:
Miles F wrote:
BTW is that my Ozone flying at Pompey?

Hope you don't mind. Yes it is, from 2007, behind the trade stalls.

No I don't mind at all and no credits needed, its just a very nice picture of my trusty low wind/ no wind favourite!
A NOHD will be published for the DS in due course, till then wear sunnies.
 
DaveyH
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Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:14 pm

Thanks Peter

As a newbie to trick flying not only di I find the work good reading but also a helpful reference, if not explaing tricks then pointing you in the right direction. I'm sure this will help many others like myself coming into the sport. =D> =D> =D>
There are many paths to the top of the mountain, but the view is always the same.
 
damp_weather
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Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:07 pm

Thank you to those of you who have written for your continued support. It is very nice to know that my efforts are appreciated. Since the last posting, I have been doing some more investigating and thinking. So...
A couple of general principles-

Printed copies and Lulu
We had a look at prices on Lulu. For a 100 page book in small quantities the pricing is around 20 to 30 dollars for colour. (It is a little under 10 dollars for black and white, but if you really want to have a treasured paper copy of a book full of colour pictures, monochrome printing doesn't seem worth it.)
So for colour allowing for customs duty, exchange rate and postage and packing, as a rule of thumb we would be looking at nearer £30. Now home printing costs may be expensive, but they are not that expensive. So I suggest that it is more economic to print out copies on your home printers.
This is particularly true if you are taking out the "beginning tricks" section onto the field, as the pages are likely to get ragged quickly, and it is nice to reprint them cheaply.

- So in summary, unless there is an outcry, I won't be publishing on Lulu.

When to download copies
The notes are aimed at beginners/intermediates who are learning. Over the last year, we found that anyone who was serious about trick kites learnt faster than the notes are expanded. So, as a guide, if you are a beginner/intermediate, you should only download the notes once, and there is little point in getting the ~monthly updates as you will probably have already learnt what has been updated.
 
damp_weather
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Re: Something to read

Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:29 pm

Hi,

....As I will be re-entering the world of permanent jobs in June, it is likely that I won't be able to keep updating the notes.
Would anyone like to take over, please?

If you are a kiting expert, fine.

- If you are still learning, that is also fine, as much of the notes come from learning ourselves. It has been easiest to write about how to do tricks (and other things) that I could remember how I struggled to learn, and most difficult to write about tricks which I picked up easily, as then I couldn't understand why the trick was going wrong for others.

If you are interested, please post or pm me.

Postscript 6th June 2010: - If you want to take over the notes, you can download an archive of the pictures and text used in the notes from
http://www.seek2know.org.uk/kites/PJKites/Kite%20notes.zip.
Last edited by damp_weather on Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Brackie
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Re: Something to read

Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:20 pm

Not up for that job!
As a pair of newbies we found it very helpful.
Thank you for all your assistance.
Mark
 
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PaulW
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Re: Something to read

Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:25 pm

Hi,

This is a great piece of work. fantastic pictures and details!

As someone with plenty of kite and not enough experience yet, I am particularly interested in bridle adjustments. To be honest it's what I find most scary.

You read about small adjustments making big differences and then panic that you've messed things up or that it's not adjusted for the conditions correctly.

I'd love to see a detailed chapter on bridle adjustments including how and when to do them. (can you do one please, please???)

I have one SUL CR Fury and one standard CR Fury along with two Joel Schulz Kestrels. I was edging more towards precision than trick but I must say I'm feeling the lure of the tricky side :-)
 
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Brackie
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Re: Something to read

Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:54 pm

Fury adjustments are in the book with your kite?
With two of them you should have two copies.
Its even colour coded...Red , Green, Black?
Its written by Carl Robertshaw.. If you can improve on that let HIM know..
I'll be watching the Bunnies at Windsor tomorrow, and Saturday and putting my Fury in the air, if we have enough wind.
While still waiting for my next kite..The Chap is busy... Berck.
:cool:

Mark
 
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PaulW
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Re: Something to read

Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:35 am

Hi Mark,

You are right I do have two sets of CR instructions. But even with those, which are comprehensive, I confessed to feeling nervous about bridles in general and asked for help. I certainly didn't intend to suggest that I was wanting to line up and tell Carl a better way to write his instructions. And it shouldn't be read that way.

Enjoy the show and lets hope the rain stays away. If I can get there I'll seek out someone to help me out with my bridle fear :-)

Cheers,

Paul.
 
damp_weather
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Re: Something to read

Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:53 pm

Mark and Paul: Thanks for your kind words about the notes. - It makes writing them worthwhile.

@ Paul,

If it is any comfort, I feel the same way about Fury bridles as you. More detailed instructions than any other kite, but I still don't get it. My kite never seems to act in the same way as Chris Goffs's (e.g. response to wind and to inputs), but I have never yet plucked up the courage to ask him about it.

That's the main reason why I have not written more on bridles. - It is one thing to discuss and read about them, but if I can't feel the effects happening I am not confident in what I would be writing. It is not just whether the people giving advice/instructions are correct, but also whether I know that I understand what they are saying because I can replicate the effects. I only feel confident about making correct adjustments for wind conditions on a few Prism kites (e.g. QPros, Ozone), and know that these adjustments do not work in quite the same way on other kites.

Peter
 
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PaulW
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Re: Something to read

Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:10 pm

Cheers Peter your response is much appreciated.

I am in the fortunate position of being brand new and having spoke to both Chris and Carl when buying my Fury's they understood why as a newbie I was buying them. It's both an incentive to crack on and learn and the comfort of knowing that if "it's" not flying well then it's most likely me and not the kite. :-) In these circumstances I know they won't mind helping me.

The SUL and standard kites have slightly different bridles and coloured markings in different places. The manuals though are the same for each kite.

Since I bought the kites at the tail end of last summer (after all the festivals had finished for 09) I've had no opportunity yet to ask for advice and guidance from Carl or Chris or anyone. I do plan to ask though.

Non of this changes the orignial statement I made that your guide pulls together some great information, it's pictures and clarity are excellent.

I'm in IT and often see IT things written for IT people, where they really would benefit from being written from the perspective that the user knows zero about what the expert takes for granted. For example Dell told my sister the other day that her hardware was ok and it was probably the software. Her immediate text to me, asked what software was! Once I explained she got it.

Perhaps Carl or someone with similar experience would add further general bridling (or specifically Fury) tips with the same close up pictures and examples.

Paul.
 
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Brackie
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Re: Something to read

Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:48 pm

Paul,
You should find on the very last page of the manual it shows how the bridle is configured as standard for each type of Fury, using the coloured markings and type of knot to use.
If yours does'nt show it I'll scan it and send you a copy.
Speaking with them today the Bunnies have several Fury kites on the day, each with the bridles set slightly different.
Remember a replacement is only a few qiud so it may be worth getting a spare and then having a go at one of the basic changes and then try tuning it and see what you get!
Regards,
Mark
 
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PaulW
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Re: Something to read

Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:23 pm

Mark,

Thank you for the kind offer but I do have the full manual. It's not immediately though clear why for example the standard and SUL bridles are different.

In my mind any manual tells you the factual what part, experince or training then tells you the "why you do it" and also the "when to do it" elements.

This thread though isn't supposed to be about how good or not Carl's manual is.

It's about Peter's guide which brings experience in a format that is easy to understand and thereby makes a manual suddenly make sense. Maybe I shouldn't have added the fact that I have a Fury.

I am more than happy to speak with Carl and team expressing my newbie lack of confidence with bridles and I know that having done that, I'll be much more confident with the Fury Bridle.


The initial and still valid point is that Peters guide is great and a deeper chapter on bridles would enhance it even more for other new kite flyers.
 
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Brackie
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Re: Something to read

Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:32 am

Sorry Paul,
But from the advice I was given .. It's up to us.
The system is the pilot, lines, bridle, kite and wind.
Every aspect is changeable.
Anticipation is only given from experience.

It just comes down to one thing... Time in the air.

(Windsor was horrid, overcast, low wind all day. Bunnies .. great, Team Spectrum.. great
, SKF .. great, Travelodge Very noisy)

Sorry if I caused any offence, none intentional, just a Big Fury fan!
Mark
;)