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damp_weather
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Re: Something to read

Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:19 pm

Brackie wrote:
Sorry Paul,
But from the advice I was given .. It's up to us.
The system is the pilot, lines, bridle, kite and wind.
Every aspect is changeable.
Anticipation is only given from experience.

It just comes down to one thing... Time in the air.

I slept on this, before deciding to reply.
...We (my partner and I) too have been given this same advice many many times. So many times that it forces me to decide either to accept it, and conclude: air time = skill level, or to rebel against it. - I rebelled against it. - Why? Well imagine this applying in other spheres of life. - Teaching at school would be a waste of time, school teachers only acting as gate keepers and policemen. - Providing you kept the pupils from being distracted, they would teach themselves. Car driving instructors' only role would be to stop the pupil doing something really dangerous while they were teaching themselves vehicle control. Any student would have to retrace the self-learning steps of the pioneers in any field. e.g. Aircraft apprentices would learn by reinventing the first aircraft.
- OK. there is a fair amount of truth in that point of view.

Instead I fell on the side that thinks passing on skills, even physical skills, is possible. That if we can only find the right way to coach, people don't have to discover everything for themselves. In sport kite tricking, I don't think we are anywhere near there yet, but just maybe it will come.

A couple of stories to support my optimism. Back as a kid, one holiday at the beach, a couple of boys of the same age came up and offered a game of football. They quickly got fed up with my skills, and said I was always "toe punching" the ball, which was why it never went far or fast. They showed me how to hit the ball with top of my foot so that it rose into the air. In my 6-8 years of life, I had never self-discovered this, and in retrospect was very thankful for their advice.

Back in kiting, there have been numerous times when I have failed to teach a trick, even when demonstrating it very very slowly and correctly. But one successful incident stays in my mind. There was an indoor kite that we had seen flying elsewhere, and had remembered the flying style used. Some months later another owner was really struggling to keep his one in the air, as he was treating it like any other light kite. Just by remembering how gently it had been flown before, I could fly the kite over to him, and once he saw that it was a kite that needed gentler inputs than any other, he was fine with it also. - OK not exactly a kite trick, but there's some hope...

...Also back at the start of our kiting, an expert showed me how to axel into the window. I had self-taught how to axel out, but couldn't axel-in. Just seeing how he set up the kite before the axel gave the clue for what to do.
Sorry if I caused any offence, none intentional, just a Big Fury fan!
Mark
;)

...With a bit of luck, one day we'll meet up and you can show us why you like them and what works for you :-D
 
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PaulW
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Re: Something to read

Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:47 pm

Hi Mark and Peter,

I was at the Windsor show today and spoke with Carl, He kindly showed me a SUL and a standard Fury and the differences in the bridling. As far as the Fury goes specifically, I understand a whole lot more now. And that for me equals confidence that my kite is set up correctly. And importantly I now know why to apply some of the instructions in the manual.

Carl said that he actually uses exactly the same bridle for every version of the Fury, they are all cut using a hot cutter to millimeter tolerance. The SUL has a flatter sail than the standard Fury (the standoffs do not push the sail out as far) and the bridling on it is made accordingly shallower. This makes the coloured markings on the bridle fall in different places on both kites. He said not to worry about that and just move the top one a tiny bit if needed, but from what he said he's more than happy to leave them as they are set.

He also explained about the two thicker black strings, which are fixed at the top but can slide left and right at the bottom. I was worried about where they should actually sit, again he said don't worry about those, they are only there to stop the bridle wrapping around the bottom of the kite tail.

Mark, I appreciate your last response. I am really a brand new flier, so for me this is a bit like getting into my first car for a first lesson, just reading the instructions would not have led me to able to drive. I do see where you were coming from though as well. I hope to do the Fury justice as I learn and I look forward to getting as much help from people as I can get.

Cheers,

Paul.
 
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Brackie
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Re: Something to read

Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:11 am

Hopefully I can.
We have a Benson and the Fury, for me, just as a newbie and flying the Fury with long lines it just allows me to react in slow speed. I can try to learn how to anticipate what the kite "feels" and then interact to try and make the Fury respond to my actions, at the end of the day, thats what I get the biggest buzz from.
The TE adjustment is great for newbies, such a small adjustment allows you to see a huge impact on the behaviour of the kite and this in turn points toward the infinite adjustments that could be made to the bridle.
My whole point was that there are four basic settings in the book, make note of what you have and then try one!
If all fails revert to what you had before, if its better, fly with it and then make small changes.
I did try one of the settings , but the kite became way to fast, even with long lines... Purely down to my expeience I suspect.

But for newbies the kite is stable.
From 4mph (TS and weight removed) to 25mph with just the Wah pads fitted, my wife can fly it.
I have only a few tricks under my belt, and axel, and a fade (always in . Not always out!).
For me this kite just does exactly what it says on the tin!
 
damp_weather
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Re: Something to read

Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:52 am

Dear Paul,

Thanks for feeding back about your questions to Carl.
Ah those black keeper lines! - Have been a bane of my life. - With tricking I have found that the keepers often migrate along the inhauls towards the tow points, which makes me think that they may interfere with the forces along the uphauls. And also when they are next to the uphauls, they no longer stop the inhaul from wrapping around the keel. - I was thinking of fixing the keepers in position on the inhauls.

Having never seen a Fury SUL up close, I have a few questions of my own.
1) If the standoffs on the SUL are shorter, does this mean that when assembled, the SUL is wider than the standard? i.e. are the SUL lower spreaders longer?
There are a couple of possibilities here - a) The SUL kite is wider, and so catches more wind. b) The SUL kite is the same width, but the sail is under less tension, and so can adopt a less flat more aerodynamic shape to fly more efficiently with what wind there is.

2) Are the SUL upper spreaders the same length as on the standard?
Again there are several possibilities. c) if the kites are the same overall width, but the SUL upper spreaders are shorter, then the upper leading edges are brought in and the sail at the nose of the kite can billow slightly and create more lift. d) If the lower spreaders are shorter and the upper spreaders are the same length again the sail at the nose can billow slightly and create more lift e) If the lower and upper spreaders are the same width in both kites, then it depends on the sail construction, which leads to the next question.

3) Is the sail of the SUL cut differently to the standard?
f) On my Fury 0.85UL (the one pictured in the kite notes' figures 17 and 18), in the panels next to the leading edge, the threads of the fabric are aligned parallel to and perpendicular to the leading edge. This means that there is minimum stretch in the fabric perpendicular to the leading edge. g) If the threads were aligned at 45 degrees to the leading edge, then there could be maximum stretch perpendicular to the leading edge, and the sail could billow in to create more lift in the wind.
h) I have heard that in the Fury SUL (or perhaps Fury SSUL, if there is such a thing) the fabric is cut so that there is extra near the nose, allowing the sail to billow naturally.


Could you please put your standard and SUL next to each other and let me know.

In the Prism Quantum Pros, for maximum lift, the QPro SUL uses b) and c) of the above possibilities. In addition, after a QPro has been flown for some hours, its sail stretches and is more efficient in low winds. I think that the 2mph value for a QPro standard's lower wind range properly applies on an older kite. I have not noticed this effect on a Fury - maybe the use of flat feld seams results in less stretch???
 
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Zippy8
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Re: Something to read

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:43 pm

damp_weather wrote:
In addition, after a QPro has been flown for some hours, its sail stretches....

If you're stretching Icarex™ then you're doing something wrong. It is completely unlike nylon sail fabrics and Does Not Like This. You'll either permanently distort the sail, which doesn't sound like something any kitemaker would plan for you to do, or it'll fail.

If you think the sail seams are opened up and this somehow improves the sail profile... got measurements ?

My SULs might fly in lower winds as they get older 'cos I get used to flying them. :wink: Much as I like the idea of kites getting better with age but I've yet to experience it.

Mike.
 
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Re: Something to read

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:39 pm

The Fury SUL has a different sail cut, there is less sail depth, hence the shorter standoff. The flatter sail means that it is more efficient at picking up the slightest of breeze BUT it has downsides, it won't trick easily, and is harder to land (it's more like a Northshore Radical than a std fury).

As for Furys in general, we (ExGrads) have only UL, Std and Vent and find that for bridles we do the following:
UL: the bridle is modified to a reverse turbo, courtesy of team Matrix Management's work, it gives a better bottom end, more 'feel' in low wind.
Std: set on black all round for precision, we only alter the amount of tension on the TE depending on the wind.
Vent: in extreme conditions we will move the uphaul so that the kite sits back more (ie lengthen it, but way past the coloured marks).

The keepers can be a pain if they move, but just nipping up the knot tight to the bridle every now and again seems to help.

Ultimately, the ability to fly in extreme conditions either way depends on experience and ability. Peter is right in that these can be taught - to some extent. You till need to put in the hours to get the principles into your head and automatic, just like other sports, theory only gets you so far.
Keith
STACK UK
National Director 2006-2012

ExGrads pairs, fourth in Europe 2011!!!
Airheads team, 10th in the world 2012
 
damp_weather
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Re: Something to read

Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:25 pm

Zippy8 wrote:
damp_weather wrote:
In addition, after a QPro has been flown for some hours, its sail stretches....

If you're stretching Icarex™ then you're doing something wrong. It is completely unlike nylon sail fabrics and Does Not Like This. You'll either permanently distort the sail, which doesn't sound like something any kitemaker would plan for you to do, or it'll fail.

My SULs might fly in lower winds as they get older 'cos I get used to flying them. :wink: Much as I like the idea of kites getting better with age but I've yet to experience it.

Mike.

Mike,

After I wrote the above posting, I realized that I had no way of truly knowing if the Fury sails stretched, as we had at most one of each type. With the QPros it is different - they are our pairs kites (if we ever compete - sorry Keith) When we settled on the QPro for this, we bought a second QPro standard around a year after our first. The pair really wouldn't fly as a matched pair for many sessions. The earlier QPro would fly in lower winds, and I can't remember which was faster (all bridle and weight settings kept the same) but one was noticeably faster than the other.
Anyway, that was a couple of years ago, and within a season the kites had settled down to acting the same.
If I had only bought the one, I would have put flying in lower winds down to more experience with the kite. - But having two bought a year apart eliminated the influence of the flyer.
This isn't such an issue with the SULs, even though they were bought nearly a year apart - I guess the sail of the older one was not stressed as it was flown in lower winds. And our VVs were bought simultaneously, and are matched from the very first flight.
If you think the sail seams are opened up and this somehow improves the sail profile... got measurements ?

Sorry if I gave that impression. - No I didn't mean that the sail seams necessarily opened up in a visible way. Rather I was thinking that with flat fell seams the fabric is folded over and stitched a few times per seam, and I could imagine that this was a source of strength in the sail - a bit like sticking/sewing a cord across the surface of the sail fabric. In contrast the QPro and many other modern kites has the sail panels overlapping (but not folded) and the overlap is glued and zig-zag stitched. So perhaps this provides less resistance to stresses across the sail.
Certainly I thought that the places the seams were put has an influence on how the sail responds to the stresses of flying.

What I observe with the QPro standards' sails, is that nowadays when I lay the sail out on the floor as flat as I can (i.e. no spreaders in place) the icarex seems much more wrinkled the nose between the keel and the leading edge. The ridges of all the wrinkles run in lines from the nose. But I cannot tell you for certain whether, as I suspect, the fabric really has stretched here, as I should have to compare it with a brand new kite.
Last edited by damp_weather on Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
damp_weather
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Re: Something to read

Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:14 pm

Keithgrif wrote:
Vent: in extreme conditions we will move the uphaul so that the kite sits back more (ie lengthen it, but way past the coloured marks).

You mean so the nose sits back away from the flyer??
(I am used to doing the exact opposite in high winds with QPros. - If we move the nose too far back to kill speed, then the kite flies erratically.)
The keepers can be a pain if they move, but just nipping up the knot tight to the bridle every now and again seems to help.

Do you undo and retie the knot? - The knots seem pretty tight to me, they just don't grip the inhaul lines much.
 
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PaulW
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Re: Something to read

Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:25 pm

Hi Peter,

I'll get both kites out and take a close look as soon as I can.

In the mean time though I can tell you what I believe Carl told me about sails. I think I was told that the sails are the same per version and it's the framing carbon rod type that is different along with the bridling and some of the construction techniques. That would appear to contradict what Keith says and I confess I do not actually know for sure, it's only what I was told at the time of purchase at kite related designs studio. They had three sails and I could choose how I wanted them building. Perhaps there is a sewing adjustment based on version choice. Only Carl would really know though.

The SUL does not have the black keeper lines because the shorter bridling negates the need, as the bridle is shorter it can't wrap around the tail. This I do know because Carl demonstrated both kites to me on Sunday.

He also said leave the keeper lines roughly in the middle he advised just leaving them and that's what I'll do with mine :-)

Cheers,

Paul.
 
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Zippy8
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Re: Something to read

Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:53 am

damp_weather wrote:
But I cannot tell you for certain whether, as I suspect, the fabric really has stretched here, as I should have to compare it with a brand new kite.

It's quite easy to tell if Icarex™ or any other ripstop fabric has stretched - look at the ripstop grid. If it's distorted or enlarged compared to virgin cloth then it's been stretched. If it isn't, it hasn't. Seams are almost certainly stronger than the cloth too.

When icky first came to market it was a major change from the nylons used before, notably Carrington K42. Not only was icky lighter, didn't absorb water, etc. but it promised much less ageing. A well flown K42 sail could end up considerably different in shape to a new one and not always in a good way. In fact, usually not. Some kitemakers even took the step of modifying their sails to accommodate the new fabric's characteristics.

I've got well flown kites made from the original Icarex™ P31 (as opposed to the PC31 of today) that show no signs of stretch. Then again... I have newer kites that have got sail damage but it's easy to see. Maybe photos later.

Mike.
 
damp_weather
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Re: Something to read

Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:55 pm

Zippy8 wrote:
damp_weather wrote:
But I cannot tell you for certain whether, as I suspect, the fabric really has stretched here, as I should have to compare it with a brand new kite.

It's quite easy to tell if Icarex™ or any other ripstop fabric has stretched - look at the ripstop grid. If it's distorted or enlarged compared to virgin cloth then it's been stretched. If it isn't, it hasn't. Seams are almost certainly stronger than the cloth too.
...
Mike.

Hmmm. Interesting point. I ran some callipers over areas in the ripstop grid, checking in line with the threads and diagonally, and can't see any significant distortion. Opened up the sail and compared it with a new (unflown?) Icarex kite (not QPro but very similar size sail) - they had a similar amount of ripples. So there doesn't seem to be any visible stretching.

But nevertheless, I have to stand by our observations about the flight characteristics changing with age....

....Do you think it could be the finish coat "deteriorating"? That is, when new, some Icarex is quite crinkly. Regarding the QPro, in new and newish kites many people including ourselves have noticed the pattern of crazing - well discolouration lines, in the white and grey panels. With lots of flying time, these seem to completely disappear and the colour goes uniform again.
....Wish I had a more accurate method of checking the ripstop grid - if there had been a distortion of say 0.2mm per ~1cm cell, I would not be able to spot this with the callipers method.
Last edited by damp_weather on Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
damp_weather
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Re: Something to read

Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:59 pm

PaulW wrote:
Hi Peter,

I'll get both kites out and take a close look as soon as I can.

In the mean time though I can tell you what I believe Carl told me about sails. I think I was told that the sails are the same per version and it's the framing carbon rod type that is different along with the bridling and some of the construction techniques. That would appear to contradict what Keith says and I confess I do not actually know for sure, it's only what I was told at the time of purchase at kite related designs studio. They had three sails and I could choose how I wanted them building. Perhaps there is a sewing adjustment based on version choice. Only Carl would really know though.

...
Cheers,

Paul.

Paul,

Still interested to read what you find when you compare SUL and standard sails. I wonder if it is the edging - trail edge material and/or leading edge sleeving which is a different weight.
 
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PaulW
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Re: Something to read

Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:53 pm

I've looked at my sails and they appear to be identical.

The differences are

The standoffs are lighter and flexible on the sul making the distance from the spars to the sail 24cm whilst on the standard it is 32cm with a firmer longer standoff. The sail feels tighter on the standard

The SUL has its sail wrapped around and sewn directly, so the spars goes through that, whilst the standard has Dacron sleeving for the spars to go through. I think the Aerostuff spars are different types as well on each kite.

Width and Height appears exactly the same.

There may be other not immediately obvious differences.

Cheers

Paul.
 
damp_weather
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Re: Something to read

Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:57 pm

PaulW wrote:
The SUL has its sail wrapped around and sewn directly, so the spars goes through that, whilst the standard has Dacron sleeving for the spars to go through.
Width and Height appears exactly the same.

Hi Paul,
Thanks for looking and reporting back.

To clarify - with the SUL, is the icarex sail folded over to form the leading edge sleeves - and does this mean that, because the leading edges of the sail have been folded over, the SUL sail is slightly smaller? (i.e. the sails were the same size to begin with, before the SUL sail leading edges were folded over?)

...Or was the SUL sail larger to start with?
- Am I right in assuming that the standard's sail is not wrapped around the leading edge spars? (It doesn't look as if it is with our 2008 Skyshark vented Fury. Only the Dacron keeps the spars in place.)
 
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PaulW
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Re: Something to read

Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:24 pm

This is fun :-)

After further inspection I can confirm it is the same sail on the sul and standard..(imho) On the sul it's sewn around the spar which makes it shallower front to back, hence the shorter standoffs.

On the Standard the sail is sewn to the Dacron which forms the pocket for the spars.

I've not checked the spine but there could be differences there as well.

cheers

Paul.