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New Moves 
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Juha wrote:
IMO the Comete is definitely a new trick of its own


Yep, I'm not saying that it isn't. The comet is a new trick of it's own, in the way that a corkscrew is a new trick of it's own, and the mobius is a new trick of its own, and so on.But the fact that they're all variations of multi-axel tricks is surely not in question?

For what it's worth, I'm not interested in taking credit away from where it's due. But I <i>am</i> interested in trying to categorise tricks and explain them in a way that someone can learn through a natural progression.

And in this case, I think it's a natural progression to learn the axel, multi-axel corkscew, and then the comet. They all require very similar hand movements that you gradually make more agressive. And don't forget that's how they evolved (Debray himself says he invented the Comet technique because his kite wouldn't corkscrew).

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but it deserves a page of its own int the book of tricks by now.


Sure, I'm not saying it doesn't. In fact, it does have a page of its own, it's just that it happens to be in the "Multiple Axel" section, which is where I think it belongs. Well, that's where it is in my book, but you are of course free to write your own book and put it in any section you like. :-)

That's the great thing about opinions - we all get to have one!

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Also, I would consider the fast, aggressive, almost slack-less Multilazy a different trick from a Lazy Susan (or even a "multiple Lazy Susan").


Yep, that's what I've been calling a "meteor". Mike suggested "asteroid" for the same thing in a backspin. It doesn't mean it's a new trick, or that X or Y invented it, or derived it from something else. It's just a name that helps us understand what we're talking about instead of saying things like "that trick where the kite jigs back and wobbles sideways" all the time.

And we can go on forever with this. For example, there are at least two different kinds of wap-do-wap/tailspin moves, one with the kite flat (what I would call "wap-do-wap style") and one with it rotating more around the spine (more like the original "tailspin"). And we have exactly the same distinction between backspin and barrel roll...

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but so do the Backspin and the Barrel Roll for instance, and they've generally thought of as 2 separate tricks.


Not really, I think of them as two variations on the same trick. Or rather, the backspin is at one end of the spectrum (kite flat) and the barrel roll is at the other (kite upright). So maybe they are the same trick, or maybe they're two different tricks. All I know is that we have two different names and most people (who know the difference) agree on what the difference is.

Same trick? Different trick? It's a matter of opinion. There is no right answer. Just two names.

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Both of the above came along after the backspin.


True. Again, I'm not saying that no new tricks have been invented. But most of the new tricks are variations on very simple basic elements: axels (single, half, multi), spin tricks (flat spin, backspin, lazy susan, shove-it), flip tricks (under, over, back, front), wraps, and so on.

Pretty much every trick in the book is built from these basic elements. I'm just saying that new basic elements don't come along that often (and as in any sport, the basics tend to get set out early on). IMHO, the comet is not a new "basic element" trick, but that doesn't mean it's not a new trick in it's own right.

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Saying that a trick is "just a derivative" if it happens to share some elements with earlier stuff is implying that everything that happened, say, 7-8 years ago had more worth than what's being done today because it was original.


I don't recall saying that it was "just a derivative". I may have said it was "a derivate" (which it is), but I certainly wouldn't have implied (not intentionally anyway) that it was somehow inferior because of this.

All I am saying that most tricks are derived from tricks that came before them. The half axel lead to the cascade which lead to the fountain. The axel led to the corkscrew which led to the comet. And so on, and so on.

It's very rare to have a new trick come along that is entirely new and not like anything that has come before it. The last such trick that I am aware of was the backspin.

Cause and effect is such that things in the past can affect the future and not the other way round. It seems entirely natural to me that we keep taking existing tricks and tweaking them to make new ones. That's why most trick can ultimately be traced back to "basic elements" but it doesn't make them any less impressive.

Hope that makes my position clearer.

A


Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:35 pm
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i believe that there ARE new tricks to be made.

i will invent them and show you.


Sat Oct 23, 2004 4:32 am
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Anonymous wrote:
i believe that there ARE new tricks to be made.


So do I. I just don't think there are many new and fundamentally different tricks to be invented, and I don't expect them to come along that often.

Maybe you need to go back and read what I've written above.

Quote:
i will invent them and show you.


I look forward to seeing them.

A

PS if you really want to invent tricks that no-one has ever done before, then perhaps you should take a look at the Airbow... :-)


Sat Oct 23, 2004 8:45 am
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:-)

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http://community.webshots.com/album/74228836srvSFa


Last edited by TeamTrejo on Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Oct 23, 2004 12:59 pm
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This is a paraphrasing (into Stuntkitese) from a very clever book about yoyoing called the Yonomicon. I believe it has lessons that can be of value to us all.

Tricks no one taught you.

You should never say that "I invented a trick." There are two reasons: First is that tricks are like spirits, they exist on their own. We don't make them, they just fly in, possess our kites for a few seconds and then fly on.

The less spiritual reason is that very often someone, somewhere, at sometime has done the trick before you. The Old Masters have done things with a kite that you can't imagine. That's why when someone asks you if you invented that trick you should say, "Well no one taught it to me." Never claim to have created a trick. It's a matter of respect for the spirits and the Old Masters.

But that aside, coming up with tricks, meeting new spirits, is great fun and is often how we learn a lot of our tricks. There are a few ways that this usually occurs. The first is when these things just happen. You miss one trick but it turns into another one, a random idea runs into you, a spirit walks up and introduces itself, you think "that was cool, but what if I…” These are all great ways and where a lot of great tricks are born. When it happens, do it again without thinking about it. Then think about it. Unconscious layers of your memory will remember these moves, then once they get it down, try to have your conscious memory remember. Or grab a friend and have them watch you. Use their conscious memory.

Another way to come up with tricks is hybriding. Hybriding a trick is taking part of one trick and attaching another part of another trick. Anytime you end up in a position that is in another trick, you can skip over to that trick at that point.


The main thrust of the book is that tricks can be broken down into a fairly small number of discrete moves and holds. I believe that the same applies to kites and that even the gnarliest combo. is simply that: a combination of a subset of these basics.

Of course, the question then becomes do we want to do this ? It's not exactly freestyle now is it. Although it may be polyvalent.

Mike.


Sat Oct 23, 2004 1:18 pm
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ahh trick zen and the dao of freestyle. :starwars: i'll try and use the force


Sat Oct 23, 2004 5:18 pm
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Hmm interesting thoughts Mike. Logically then perhaps, none of our kites have been BUILT, in that they are all re-incarnations of a previous existence. So why the hell have all mine forgotten how to trick..:)


Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:23 pm
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There is also a few individual who have only one quest to get more out of every move/trick and other that have a flying style that create tricks or tricks combination just by doing, have a look at these video for exemple:
(it's Pascal Lsurger mister crazy copter for the style part of my post)
http://arthur.leclaire.free.fr/Pascal%2 ... 2010mo.AVI

And some variation of the crazy copter by Christian Defferat going from standard to hmm... very hard to do! Except maybe for abw? :-$
(for the more of it part of my post!)
http://cerfvolanttrick.webheberg.com/crazy copter 5 x masque.avi
http://users.skynet.be/fa420070/yocrazy.mpg
http://users.skynet.be/fa420070/crazy540.mpg
have fun watching! :elephant:
Alain


Sat Oct 23, 2004 8:14 pm
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Anonymous wrote:
There is also a few individual who have only one quest to get more out of every move/trick and other that have a flying style that create tricks or tricks combination just by doing


Yes, but.... the thing is that most of the extended yofade/crazy stuff is simply physically impossible to do on most kites. They won't do it, no matter how good the pilot is. I think there is a line that's crossed when you start designing kites that are geared towards doing a certain kind of trick to such an extent that it seriously harms their ability to perform other stuff. Is it a "new trick" anymore if it needs a specific kite and specific conditions (for instance, very low wind) to perform it in the first place?

When the backspin became fashionable, there were kites designed to be "backspin machines". But good backspinnability in itself doesn't mean a kite can no longer do 540's, yoyos, multilazies... etc. Now, it's easily possible to design a kite so pitchy that extended stuff like Yofades are well within reach for more than a handful of people. But would that be sensible? What's the point? I'm sure many new tricks could be invented on a skateboard that had a set of wheels on BOTH sides of the deck. However, nobody has any desire to make a board like that. There's a reason for this.

I have to say that personally I'm not very impressed by the videos of the Virus doing Crazy 540's, Yocrazies and the like. To me they're perfect examples of "tricks" that are only possible on certain kites in certain conditions (very very light wind). I'm not saying the Virus isn't a nice kite - evidently it is and I might well get my hands on one some day myself. But to truly inspire, those new tricks/extensions should be done on kites that haven't been designed to just pitch, and in a broader range of conditions.

OK, I rambled a bit there and some of it probably doesn't make sense... hopefully most of it does. 8)

Juha


Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:25 pm
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Quote:
Yes, but.... the thing is that most of the extended yofade/crazy stuff is simply physically impossible to do on most kites.


Well Juha, i understand your point of view but in the case of the crazy copter it can be fly on quite a lot of kites and by a lot of different pilots.
It is already an OLD trick and i have see it done by Pascal his creator at the 98' trickparty in Narbonne.
Its a trick that has been put to the list of at trick party and juge has been trained to juge it in 2002 already.
On the first cricri's video is doing it on a Masque! :cool:
[url]http://cerfvolanttrick.webheberg.com/crazy copter 5 x masque.avi
[/url]

Yoyo has been there for years... look at the psycho video! :D

The yofade and yofadebackspin has been already tested by l'equipe R-Sky and they work on the Nirvana and the XMasque beside the cricri's le Virus and some other that i am not sure off, (some people pretend they can do it but we have not see it yet), some trick party's juge has seen it and some has fly it too.
It will be presented to the pilots and juge at the first 2005 trick party or trick clinic and if it pass the test it will be on the list!
To have your own trick take into the list you will have to fly it , in front of the trick party juges and pilots, with success 8 out of 10 time.
2 other pilot should be able to reproduce it, and on different kite too.
The trick will be take to the list only if the combination of the different moves that compose the trick, is a dificulty by itself.
On that point the juges are quite hard.


Last edited by Alain on Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:13 am
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Alain wrote:
in the case of the crazy copter it can be made on quite a lot of kite and by a lot of different pilot.


Yes. I specifically avoided naming the Crazy Copter in this context because that's a trick that's a LOT less kite-dependent and wind-dependent than, say, the Yocrazy and Crazy 540. I've done the CC myself on several kites and in many conditions.


Quote:
The yofade and yofadebackspin has been already tested by l'equipe R-Sky and they work on the Nirvana and the XMasque


If someone shows me a yofadebackspin on a Nirvana with the standard 15 grams of tail weight and in 8mph winds, I'll be very very impressed indeed.


Juha


Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:25 am
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Alain wrote:
Well Juha, i understand your point of view but in the case of the crazy copter it can be fly on quite a lot of kites and by a lot of different pilots.
It is already an OLD trick and i have see it done by Pascal his creator at the 98' trickparty in Narbonne.


Yep, and I was doing something called a "Limey Twist" back in 1998, a trick which nobody taught me ;-), which is essentially the same thing.

http://wardley.org/kites/reckites/frees ... newz2.html

I was doing it on an Outer Space which doesn't really backspin flat, so instead we got a lateral roll (like a barrel roll) around the spine. But it's more or less the same, in the way that backspin/barrel roll are.

A


Sun Oct 24, 2004 5:34 pm
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Alain wrote:
Quote:
Yes, but.... the thing is that most of the extended yofade/crazy stuff is simply physically impossible to do on most kites.


Well Juha, i understand your point of view but in the case of the crazy copter it can be fly on quite a lot of kites and by a lot of different pilots.
It is already an OLD trick and i have see it done by Pascal his creator at the 98' trickparty in Narbonne.


Even though the Crazy Copter may be common on a number of kites now, it and the kite Pascal is flying in that video are still an example of a kite being built to favour a certain group of tricks at the expense of others.
I have one of those kites and in 98 it was something completely alien, quite a few of us who were used to balanced, floaty kites like Bensons of us struggled to really do much with it simply because it favoured pitch tricks so much when we were all axeling and 540ing. It does very ugly flat spin / axle type tricks.
At the time there wasnt really anything else to do a Crazy on (well except ABW, OS & Limey Twist)


Sun Oct 24, 2004 6:00 pm
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Didn't Reed to a comet in the Prism trick show video? Answer is yes. They were also doing yoyo and lazy susan type stuff back in 93 with the radian. I hear all this BS about new tricks. New to who?


Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:46 am
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A bunch of know-it-all-newbies come along that don't know their ass from a hole in the wall and they start re naming tricks. Also what's this crap about new kite design? Straight leading edges, a couple of stand offs and a three point bridle is old school. I can throw a weight on a NSR and make it do the same stuff. Bunch of hacks.


Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:50 am
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