Juha wrote:IMO the Comete is definitely a new trick of its own
Yep, I'm not saying that it isn't. The comet is a new trick of it's own, in the way that a corkscrew is a new trick of it's own, and the mobius is a new trick of its own, and so on.But the fact that they're all variations of multi-axel tricks is surely not in question?
For what it's worth, I'm not interested in taking credit away from where it's due. But I <i>am</i> interested in trying to categorise tricks and explain them in a way that someone can learn through a natural progression.
And in this case, I think it's a natural progression to learn the axel, multi-axel corkscew, and then the comet. They all require very similar hand movements that you gradually make more agressive. And don't forget that's how they evolved (Debray himself says he invented the Comet technique because his kite wouldn't corkscrew).
but it deserves a page of its own int the book of tricks by now.
Sure, I'm not saying it doesn't. In fact, it does have a page of its own, it's just that it happens to be in the "Multiple Axel" section, which is where I think it belongs. Well, that's where it is in my book, but you are of course free to write your own book and put it in any section you like.
That's the great thing about opinions - we all get to have one!
Also, I would consider the fast, aggressive, almost slack-less Multilazy a different trick from a Lazy Susan (or even a "multiple Lazy Susan").
Yep, that's what I've been calling a "meteor". Mike suggested "asteroid" for the same thing in a backspin. It doesn't mean it's a new trick, or that X or Y invented it, or derived it from something else. It's just a name that helps us understand what we're talking about instead of saying things like "that trick where the kite jigs back and wobbles sideways" all the time.
And we can go on forever with this. For example, there are at least two different kinds of wap-do-wap/tailspin moves, one with the kite flat (what I would call "wap-do-wap style") and one with it rotating more around the spine (more like the original "tailspin"). And we have exactly the same distinction between backspin and barrel roll...
but so do the Backspin and the Barrel Roll for instance, and they've generally thought of as 2 separate tricks.
Not really, I think of them as two variations on the same trick. Or rather, the backspin is at one end of the spectrum (kite flat) and the barrel roll is at the other (kite upright). So maybe they are the same trick, or maybe they're two different tricks. All I know is that we have two different names and most people (who know the difference) agree on what the difference is.
Same trick? Different trick? It's a matter of opinion. There is no right answer. Just two names.
Both of the above came along after the backspin.
True. Again, I'm not saying that no new tricks have been invented. But most of the new tricks are variations on very simple basic elements: axels (single, half, multi), spin tricks (flat spin, backspin, lazy susan, shove-it), flip tricks (under, over, back, front), wraps, and so on.
Pretty much every trick in the book is built from these basic elements. I'm just saying that new basic elements don't come along that often (and as in any sport, the basics tend to get set out early on). IMHO, the comet is not a new "basic element" trick, but that doesn't mean it's not a new trick in it's own right.
Saying that a trick is "just a derivative" if it happens to share some elements with earlier stuff is implying that everything that happened, say, 7-8 years ago had more worth than what's being done today because it was original.
I don't recall saying that it was "just a derivative". I may have said it was "a derivate" (which it is), but I certainly wouldn't have implied (not intentionally anyway) that it was somehow inferior because of this.
All I am saying that most tricks are derived from tricks that came before them. The half axel lead to the cascade which lead to the fountain. The axel led to the corkscrew which led to the comet. And so on, and so on.
It's very rare to have a new trick come along that is entirely new and not like anything that has come before it. The last such trick that I am aware of was the backspin.
Cause and effect is such that things in the past can affect the future and not the other way round. It seems entirely natural to me that we keep taking existing tricks and tweaking them to make new ones. That's why most trick can ultimately be traced back to "basic elements" but it doesn't make them any less impressive.
Hope that makes my position clearer.