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Ara Ararauna
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Deep Purple or Deep Turtle

Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:06 am

Hi,

I'm having trouble with getting my turtles sufficiently deep so as to be able to properly do lazies, lazy cascades or start jacob's ladders.
Since I don't get the turtles well set, I almost always get a tip wrap or both lines above the kite instead of below it.
I "think" I do give a lot of slack: push arms well in front of me + do a few steps forward (or even run a bit)...

But the kite just gently leans back and floats down flat as opposed to having the nose pointing down, which makes it more difficult to get the lines under it when doing the lazy.

I'm pretty sure there must be a trick to get the turtles really deep.
Any ideas or suggestions will be appreciated.
Cheers!

[Smoooooooke on the waaaaater... and turtles in the skyyyy!]
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Duals: No-name (No-brand), Nexus (Prism), Talon UL (JoE), Soul (Flying Wings), LeQuartz (own build), Illusion Classic (Prism), Aura 4.7Oz (Sky Burner), Sixth Sense STD (Krijn)
Singles: Conyne STD (my design)
 
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Ara Ararauna
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Re: Deep Purple or Deep Turtle

Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:09 am

Oh, yes. I forgot to say that I can do rolling suzans quite well now and on both sides.
But what I want is to start the lazies from a static turtle which I enter from an upward flight.
Thanks.
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Duals: No-name (No-brand), Nexus (Prism), Talon UL (JoE), Soul (Flying Wings), LeQuartz (own build), Illusion Classic (Prism), Aura 4.7Oz (Sky Burner), Sixth Sense STD (Krijn)
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711jrp
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Re: Deep Purple or Deep Turtle

Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:08 pm

Try initiating the spin a bit earlier, but it is harder to start a lazy from a static turtle.
Pete
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Ara Ararauna
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Re: Deep Purple or Deep Turtle

Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:22 pm

711jrp wrote:
Try initiating the spin a bit earlier, but it is harder to start a lazy from a static turtle.


Thanks Pete but my problem is not doing the lazy. Once I get a good turtle the lazy I can do well and I can even cascade them welñl.

The issue here is getting a goiod turtle to be able to then start the lazy...

Cheers.
In my bag...
Duals: No-name (No-brand), Nexus (Prism), Talon UL (JoE), Soul (Flying Wings), LeQuartz (own build), Illusion Classic (Prism), Aura 4.7Oz (Sky Burner), Sixth Sense STD (Krijn)
Singles: Conyne STD (my design)
 
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Craig
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Re: Deep Purple or Deep Turtle

Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:57 pm

Once you let the kite settle it'll float in a balanced position, some kites will go deeper than others, once settled it's difficult to make the kite go any deeper, as Pete says you need to pop the lazy early before the kite settles.
 
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Ara Ararauna
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Re: Deep Purple or Deep Turtle

Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:19 pm

Craig wrote:
Once you let the kite settle it'll float in a balanced position, some kites will go deeper than others, once settled it's difficult to make the kite go any deeper, as Pete says you need to pop the lazy early before the kite settles.


Ah! OK I get it now, thanks Craig and thanks Pete!

I'll try it next time out!
In my bag...
Duals: No-name (No-brand), Nexus (Prism), Talon UL (JoE), Soul (Flying Wings), LeQuartz (own build), Illusion Classic (Prism), Aura 4.7Oz (Sky Burner), Sixth Sense STD (Krijn)
Singles: Conyne STD (my design)
 
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Ara Ararauna
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Re: Deep Purple or Deep Turtle

Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:25 pm

Very low breeze this afternoon but got almost an hour of flying with my Skyburner Aura (4.7Oz).

Despite the SUL and the low wind I think I understood the fast sequence from flying up, give slack to turtle and then quickly lazy.
I think it worked much better!
I must now try it in more wind with my UL and Std to confirm and fixate the sequence.
But I'm quite happy and optimistic.

Thanks for the help Craig and Pete!
:D
In my bag...
Duals: No-name (No-brand), Nexus (Prism), Talon UL (JoE), Soul (Flying Wings), LeQuartz (own build), Illusion Classic (Prism), Aura 4.7Oz (Sky Burner), Sixth Sense STD (Krijn)
Singles: Conyne STD (my design)
 
damp_weather
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Re: Deep Purple or Deep Turtle

Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:27 pm

Ara,

As someone who has spent years struggling first to do the lazy and nowadays the multi-lazy, perhaps it would be helpful to add my penny-worth.

Take an assembled kite, and in still air hold it in your hands in the deep turtle position (say spine at 45 degrees to the horizontal), and let go so that it drops.
- I expect that what you'll find is that the kite tilts its nose upwards as it floats downwards. I suspect that this is what happening to you when you give the kite lots and lots of slack from nose-up flying position. First the kite flies in an arc (about a horizontal axis) with the nose falling backwards into a turtle. Then when the kite has lost most of its momentum and is floating with the wind, and gravity takes over, the nose starts coming up again until the kite is flying with its spine close to horizontal.

So how to maintain a deeper turtle/backflip position? Back to the assembled kite held in your hands in the deep turtle position. This time, instead of just letting go, throw the kite in a horizontal direction, trailing edge first. (i.e. to simulate pulling on the lines while the kite is in the backflip). I expect you’ll find that while the kite is moving backwards in the direction of the initial throw, the kite rotates into a deeper turtle.
It’s a bit of a balancing act to keep the kite in turtle from the initial backflip– have to catch the lines at the right moment and apply the right amount of tension. – I can only claim to have this partly sussed. (The partial bit is a long story involving trying to maintain altitude and working on the lifter – perhaps something for discussion in a later posting.)

Anyway, let’s suppose the kite has been backflipped and you are holding a deep enough turtle for a lazy susan. I find that just pulling one line for the lazy at this point is bad. The kite may pull out of the backflip, or won’t rotate all the way round. Instead either: from normal flight do an uneven backflip (that is releasing tension on line slightly before the other) or maintain the backflip with uneven tension, until one wing (the one on the side that is to be pulled for the lazy) is nearer you. I feel I start pulling harder for the lazy roughly when the leading edge of the side is pointing back to a point over my head.

If you try to the above, please let us know if (and how) it works for you.


(As you can see from the posting times, I wrote the above while Ara you were writing your last posting. - Congratulations on getting the lazy to work. For the record, while I find I can do the above with most of my kites, recently I have practiced most often with an Ocius SUL in very light winds [~0-3mph].
Going immediately from the backflip to the lazy does work for me too, but I feel that what is going on is that the line tension for the lazy stops the kite leveling out in the backflip, similar to applying tension to both lines to maintain a deep-ish backflip before doing a lazy.)
 
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Ara Ararauna
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Re: Deep Purple or Deep Turtle

Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:44 pm

Thanks a lot damp_weather!
I will try your technique too.
I believe that every single manoeuvre I can incorporate to my knowledge will surely make me a better flier.
So Cheers and I'll tell you when I try it.
In my bag...
Duals: No-name (No-brand), Nexus (Prism), Talon UL (JoE), Soul (Flying Wings), LeQuartz (own build), Illusion Classic (Prism), Aura 4.7Oz (Sky Burner), Sixth Sense STD (Krijn)
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Hawkerhunter
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Re: Deep Purple or Deep Turtle

Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:16 am

it sounds to me like you are not snapping your wrists prior to giving slack for the turtle. If you just throw slack in the lines as the kite is moving up it will just gently float into a shallow turtle. You need to quickly pop/flick both lines hard and then throw the slack in. This is particularly important with some ULs to get them in a deep trurtle. The rest is like Craig has said, dont wait for the kite to settle you need to anticipate the move and pull for the lazy straight away. If your getting tip wrapped your almost certainly not giving enough slack during the rotation so try stepping in to the kite while its rotating. If its set up right the kite should need little tending to as it rotates so you can get away with loads of slack
Steve

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Ara Ararauna
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Re: Deep Purple or Deep Turtle

Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:46 am

Hawkerhunter wrote:
it sounds to me like you are not snapping your wrists prior to giving slack for the turtle. If you just throw slack in the lines as the kite is moving up it will just gently float into a shallow turtle. You need to quickly pop/flick both lines hard and then throw the slack in. This is particularly important with some ULs to get them in a deep trurtle. The rest is like Craig has said, dont wait for the kite to settle you need to anticipate the move and pull for the lazy straight away. If your getting tip wrapped your almost certainly not giving enough slack during the rotation so try stepping in to the kite while its rotating. If its set up right the kite should need little tending to as it rotates so you can get away with loads of slack



OK Steve, I will try the wrist snap too (gee, so many things to think about in such a short lapse of time!) :wink:

The tip wrap I don't think it is because of a lack of slack. I do give plenty. But since the kite is too flat, more often than not, one of the lines goes above the kite instead of below because the tips are too low. This is why I want a deep turtle, to have the tips pointing up nicely and then get the lines to sneak below them in the rotation.

So anticipating to the turtle and starting the lazy right away (instead of waiting) has already done the trick in most cases. Now if I polish all the other details that you have all told me I should be doing lazies and lazy cascades like crazy! :badgrin:

Cheers!
In my bag...
Duals: No-name (No-brand), Nexus (Prism), Talon UL (JoE), Soul (Flying Wings), LeQuartz (own build), Illusion Classic (Prism), Aura 4.7Oz (Sky Burner), Sixth Sense STD (Krijn)
Singles: Conyne STD (my design)