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Ara Ararauna
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No tricks for now until I understand...

Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:03 am

Hi,

I thought I'd take it easy for a while and not try out tricks, to start doing some systematic testing on my inputs to the kite to try to understand how each "elementary" input leads to a specific effect on the kite.
However, as much as my inputs try to systematically test, my results are not systematic... :(

For example:
1. On flying laterally, give a strong short pull on the lower wing (no previous push).
This sometimes leads the kite to enter a turtle position, but other times it goes into a spin axel sort of sideways...

or...

2. On flying laterally, give a strong short pull on the upper wing (no previous push).
This sometimes leads the kite to go into a flare (like before starting a Slot or a Taz), but other times it goes into a spin axel sort of downwards...

These two elementary inputs should allow me to then face some tricks. For example "1." should help me get two-tip landings or start lazies after having the turtle in place.
Or "2." should allow me to start Taz's or Slots.
But if I cannot get consistent results then it is quite impossible to try to do anything else!

So... what the H**l am I doing wrong?!?! :? :o :-(

Any help will be greatly appreciated.
In my bag...
Duals: No-name (No-brand), Nexus (Prism), Talon UL (JoE), Soul (Flying Wings), LeQuartz (own build), Illusion Classic (Prism), Aura 4.7Oz (Sky Burner), Sixth Sense STD (Krijn)
Singles: Conyne STD (my design)
 
adicakes
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Re: No tricks for now until I understand...

Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:56 am

In each case you've specified inputs for one hand, but not the other - and that will make a world of difference as to what happens next.

Also, do you work in academia?
 
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Ara Ararauna
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Re: No tricks for now until I understand...

Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:09 pm

adicakes wrote:
In each case you've specified inputs for one hand, but not the other - and that will make a world of difference as to what happens next.

You are absolutely right...
But I didn't know how to go about this.
My idea was to keep the other hand sort of "neutral". In other words, neither give slack or pull...
Does that make any sense?

adicakes wrote:
Also, do you work in academia?

Gee! I'm stigmatised already... :oops:
Yes, I am professor and researcher in university... :-P
In my bag...
Duals: No-name (No-brand), Nexus (Prism), Talon UL (JoE), Soul (Flying Wings), LeQuartz (own build), Illusion Classic (Prism), Aura 4.7Oz (Sky Burner), Sixth Sense STD (Krijn)
Singles: Conyne STD (my design)
 
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Ara Ararauna
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Re: No tricks for now until I understand...

Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:13 pm

Oh, yes!
Moreover, when I pull the upper wing I sometimes get the kite in turtle position which really made me go nuts since that is what I was expecting from pulling the lower wing...
:?

I'm completely confused...
In my bag...
Duals: No-name (No-brand), Nexus (Prism), Talon UL (JoE), Soul (Flying Wings), LeQuartz (own build), Illusion Classic (Prism), Aura 4.7Oz (Sky Burner), Sixth Sense STD (Krijn)
Singles: Conyne STD (my design)
 
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misterbleepy
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Re: No tricks for now until I understand...

Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:53 pm

Ara Ararauna wrote:
...when I pull the upper wing I sometimes get the kite in turtle position which really made me go nuts since that is what I was expecting from pulling the lower wing...


isn't that 1/2 way to a snap-lazy then?
Keith B
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Ara Ararauna
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Re: No tricks for now until I understand...

Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:59 pm

misterbleepy wrote:
Ara Ararauna wrote:
...when I pull the upper wing I sometimes get the kite in turtle position which really made me go nuts since that is what I was expecting from pulling the lower wing...


isn't that 1/2 way to a snap-lazy then?


But I though a snap-lazy was achieved also by pulling the lower wing. Just like when you enter a turtle to then do a two-tip landing.
I thought that the "set up" steps were the same in both tricks but the difference was that in the 2-tip landing you did the turtle really close to the ground and then pulled both lines to land it, whereas in the snap-lazy you did the turtle up in the air and then pulled one line to start the lazy...

Am I completely wrong?

Thanks.
In my bag...
Duals: No-name (No-brand), Nexus (Prism), Talon UL (JoE), Soul (Flying Wings), LeQuartz (own build), Illusion Classic (Prism), Aura 4.7Oz (Sky Burner), Sixth Sense STD (Krijn)
Singles: Conyne STD (my design)
 
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RoyReed
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Re: No tricks for now until I understand...

Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:16 pm

I don't know if you've seen them, but Randy Greenway's videos are some of the best for learning tricks from.
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Ara Ararauna
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Re: No tricks for now until I understand...

Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:37 pm

RoyReed wrote:
I don't know if you've seen them, but Randy Greenway's videos are some of the best for learning tricks from.


Yes, sure I've seen them.

However, the idea was rather to understand what happens if I pull this or that, so as to understand the underlying principles of kite control.

This would be my goal rather than learning tricks as an uncontrolled mechanism.
I usually have the feeling that when I learn a new trick, such as the 540, and I manage to get it right every time, I do it mechanically without getting a real sense of what is going on.
So when I need to learn a new trick, say the axel to fade, I really don't take advantage of what I've learnt previously.

So I thought that if I understand what happens if "I pull this or that" I would then be in a much better position to learn new things.
In my bag...
Duals: No-name (No-brand), Nexus (Prism), Talon UL (JoE), Soul (Flying Wings), LeQuartz (own build), Illusion Classic (Prism), Aura 4.7Oz (Sky Burner), Sixth Sense STD (Krijn)
Singles: Conyne STD (my design)
 
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misterbleepy
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Re: No tricks for now until I understand...

Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:21 pm

Ara Ararauna wrote:
misterbleepy wrote:
Ara Ararauna wrote:
...when I pull the upper wing I sometimes get the kite in turtle position which really made me go nuts since that is what I was expecting from pulling the lower wing...


isn't that 1/2 way to a snap-lazy then?


But I though a snap-lazy was achieved also by pulling the lower wing. Just like when you enter a turtle to then do a two-tip landing.
I thought that the "set up" steps were the same in both tricks but the difference was that in the 2-tip landing you did the turtle really close to the ground and then pulled both lines to land it, whereas in the snap-lazy you did the turtle up in the air and then pulled one line to start the lazy...

Am I completely wrong?

Thanks.


my bad on the popping the upper wing for a snap lazy - sorry - I've only just managed this a few times, and since I did I've had a long time without flying.

I understand what you're trying to do by breaking down the kite's behaviour - it's an interesting idea.
Getting this approach to work may be kite-dependant - some kites don't like to stay in some positions at all, so they may transition through where you think they should be, if you get my drift...
Keith B

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Re: No tricks for now until I understand...

Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:59 pm

Ara,

Trick flying is really slack line flying and whilst an input is required to start a move, it's the slack that determines whether and how well the trick succeeds.

Whilst what you are doing is an interesting exercise, it's the understanding of how much slack and when that moves you on as a flier.

It took me about three years to fully realise this.

Once I did, I started to recognise that most of my inputs were far too aggressive and what I needed to do was tone them down and manage the slack much better.

I hope this helps as I'm concerned that what you are trying to do may not be as productive as you think.

Jon
 
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Ara Ararauna
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Re: No tricks for now until I understand...

Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:23 pm

jaydub wrote:
Ara,

Trick flying is really slack line flying and whilst an input is required to start a move, it's the slack that determines whether and how well the trick succeeds.

Whilst what you are doing is an interesting exercise, it's the understanding of how much slack and when that moves you on as a flier.

It took me about three years to fully realise this.

Once I did, I started to recognise that most of my inputs were far too aggressive and what I needed to do was tone them down and manage the slack much better.

I hope this helps as I'm concerned that what you are trying to do may not be as productive as you think.

Jon


Thank you very, VERY much Jon for this comment and advise.

I had heard this thing about "slack line flying" but I had not realised it is actually the philosophy behind the sport.
Of course I have been told many times that I must give more slack here or there, but to understand it as <the> main property or quality is something quite different.

I think I understand what you mean in that what I'm trying is probably not productive.
So I thank you even more for helping me avoid getting derailed in my learning process.

OK then, I will pay double attention on the slack and rewatch all the videos and tutorials with new eyes.

THANKS! :D
In my bag...
Duals: No-name (No-brand), Nexus (Prism), Talon UL (JoE), Soul (Flying Wings), LeQuartz (own build), Illusion Classic (Prism), Aura 4.7Oz (Sky Burner), Sixth Sense STD (Krijn)
Singles: Conyne STD (my design)
 
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Re: No tricks for now until I understand...

Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:28 pm

as a very fresh kite pilot i tell you that, some times im doing really serious crazy stuff
(read tricks) without any knowledge how it happens, i think you experiencing the same thing.

when i can repeat this, im watching videos to find the name for & master it.
Prism Nexus, Chris Matheson - Midi Sandpiper, DIY Le Quartz, R-Sky Diablis, DIY Pink S.U.L
CIM - Fireman, DIY SunDog Fighter

http://pinkfloodesign.com/
 
adicakes
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Re: No tricks for now until I understand...

Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:08 pm

Ara Ararauna wrote:
My idea was to keep the other hand sort of "neutral". In other words, neither give slack or pull...


My gut feeling is that there's too many variables to run an experiment like this with consistent outcomes, particularly if you're in the beginner phase of your kiting journey. There's the strength and type (sweep vs pop) of the input, subtle changes in the "neutral" line's tension, wind factors, footwork, etc., and they're all continuous variables. ;)

Ara Ararauna wrote:
Yes, I am professor and researcher in university... :-P


Yep, guessed that from a few of your previous posts and recognised the mindset because I'm also from that sort of background. :) I've found that the "gray matter" approach works for some aspects of kiting, but can be a hindrance to others. For example, I'm convinced that it took me longer than necessary to learn the comete, simply because I took a "thinking approach" to the move, trying to decompose it down into individual inputs and relate it to other tricks in the bag at the time. Pragmatically, a better approach would've been to work backwards - flail till it started to work, tune it in, then understand what's going on.

YMMV. :)
 
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Ara Ararauna
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Re: No tricks for now until I understand...

Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:21 pm

adicakes wrote:
Ara Ararauna wrote:
My idea was to keep the other hand sort of "neutral". In other words, neither give slack or pull...


My gut feeling is that there's too many variables to run an experiment like this with consistent outcomes, particularly if you're in the beginner phase of your kiting journey. There's the strength and type (sweep vs pop) of the input, subtle changes in the "neutral" line's tension, wind factors, footwork, etc., and they're all continuous variables. ;)

Ara Ararauna wrote:
Yes, I am professor and researcher in university... :-P


Yep, guessed that from a few of your previous posts and recognised the mindset because I'm also from that sort of background. :) I've found that the "gray matter" approach works for some aspects of kiting, but can be a hindrance to others. For example, I'm convinced that it took me longer than necessary to learn the comete, simply because I took a "thinking approach" to the move, trying to decompose it down into individual inputs and relate it to other tricks in the bag at the time. Pragmatically, a better approach would've been to work backwards - flail till it started to work, tune it in, then understand what's going on.

YMMV. :)



Thanks for your comments.
So you mean I must start being more intuitive and less square headed :wink: :-P
You're not the first one to tell me so and kiting is not the first topic/activity in which I've been told the like :)

OK, I'll let my hair loose (the little I have left) and start feeling rather than thinking. :lol:
In my bag...
Duals: No-name (No-brand), Nexus (Prism), Talon UL (JoE), Soul (Flying Wings), LeQuartz (own build), Illusion Classic (Prism), Aura 4.7Oz (Sky Burner), Sixth Sense STD (Krijn)
Singles: Conyne STD (my design)
 
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Re: No tricks for now until I understand...

Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:33 pm

Just see how it works for you.

I find that I really can't do a trick from the description of the inputs (as many people seem to learn here), but if I gain an understanding of what the kite is doing I find learning the trick much easier.

You'll find me learning a new trick by taking a full size kite and moving it through the positions with my hands: it gives me a grasp of where the lines will be and how much slack I need when (something I really struggle with!)
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